A frustration
Ken and I are trying to prepare for a few contingencies. After all, sooner or later we’ll have to perform a wedding ceremony, baby dedication, or funeral. Comes with the territory.
Baby dedications are fairly simple and don’t need an elaborate ceremony, and it all lends to a message that’s easy to preach and won’t require more preparation than others. Weddings, on the other hand, are almost always elaborate, with many customs and such attached (such as whether the bride’s mother or groom’s mother gets seated first.) Not our forte - so we’ve found a couple of websites that outline wedding ceremonies from plain to extravagant. Not easy. But not rocket science for the pastor.
Funerals, on the other hand, are thorny. I think I could preach the funeral of a relative stranger or acquaintance, but how do you preach the funeral of someone you love? Our church members are our family - we’re united by the Blood, even if not by direct genetics. I suppose we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. And I suppose that preaching the funeral of someone we know is in heaven won’t be so difficult. It is, after all, a celebration of one’s homegoing.
But what of funerals for children? That’s got to be hard. Families don’t want theological or intellectual explanations. Or worse, for someone we are 99.9% sure is unsaved (can’t discount that last-minute confession of faith, but I’m convinced they’re rare)?
I’ve tried googling about for examples on that last… and all I’ve found either comfort the grieving that because God is merciful, their loved one will find mercy. Er… no. If their loved one got judged on his own merits, rather than those of Jesus, that person is in hell. That’s a stark, cold, slap-you-in-the-face reality. I hate the thought so much that as I typed it, tears formed. Yet we can’t change reality. Truth is truth, no matter how unpleasant. At the same time, though, we can’t slap that family in the face with this fact. If they’re believers, they know it already; if they’re not, parading it around surely will not help. I’ve read sermons which are like this. 
So - how do you preach the funeral of someone who wasn’t saved?
March 27th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Well, you’re the first person I’ve ever run into that’s cared enough to have qualms about it.
If I were a Christian, I would tell folks something like, “***’s fate is in the hands of God, who is always just and always loving. His will is perfect, and we should take a small measure of comfort in knowing that his will is done.”
And I’m torn between not wanting you to know how icky it makes me feel to write that, and wanting you to know that you are important enough to me as a friend that I would write things that make me feel that icky.
March 27th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Testing before I potentially double-post, as it looks like my last comment got eaten.
March 29th, 2008 at 7:13 am
“So - how do you preach the funeral of someone who wasn’t saved?”
You can’t, not without making a hypocrite of yourself.
March 29th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
I tried to post a couple of days ago, but it ate my comment.
If I were a Christian, and that kind of Christian, I would probably say something like, “So-and-so’s fate is in the hands of God, who is always just and who loves us very much. His will is perfect, and we should be grateful that his will is done.”
There’s all sorts of problems I have with that, but I think it plays by the rules set out for it. First off, I can’t resist the challenge, and second, you’re the first Christian I met who’s professed a belief in hell but who doesn’t relish the thought of people going there. And third, I consider you a friend, and I don’t know if any of the above works for you, but I figure you deserve my best effort.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:46 am
Not sure why it would eat your comment?? But i’m going to upgrade soon, and hopefully that takes care of many things.
I think that what you typed fits in with who God is. Would love to hear what problems you have with it.
I’d say that I have a hard time believing that Christians would relish someone going to hell, except that I’ve run across some like that too.
There seems to be two types - those who have a very dim grasp on who Jesus is and why they show up in a dress to a building with a steeple every Sunday, and those who know the Bible inside out, upside down, and word for word and who REFUSE to be transformed by it.
I’m always astonished by biblical illiteracy… but always more by those who read God’s word and continue to hate the ones Jesus loves. It’s like they believe that only certain people can earn grace, and sinners aren’t among those people :::rolls eyes:::
“Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Matthew 9:10-13)
March 30th, 2008 at 7:02 am
“I’d say that I have a hard time believing that Christians would relish someone going to hell, except that I’ve run across some like that too.”
“Relish” is too soft a word; I’ve met those who positively chortled with glee.
March 30th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Jesus weeps…
March 30th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Hey Kathi!
It’s me, Donna - different user name. I had to get on board for this one.
Is it really possible to be 99.9% sure that someone is not saved? Does anyone truly know what is in a person’s heart? Or what happens at the moment of death? We can’t begin to presume.
And then there is the question of whether one that claims to be saved truly is. Isn’t it true that only God knows?
I think the only way that you could ever be safe is to go with a format such as Catfantastic has laid out - but for all, saints and sinners alike. jmho.
Donna
March 30th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Does anyone REALLY know what’s in a person’s heart? Only God.
Jesus said that people would be known by their fruits. If a person says they are following Christ and their lives show it, we should believe they are, indeed, saved. Doesn’t mean they’ll be perfect.
If one professes Christ and lives like the devil, well - given that I do not believe in once-saved-always-saved I would say that either the person was never saved OR that they willfully gave it up.
Likewise if one never makes a profession of faith (regardless of their relative “goodness” in the eyes of the world), we can assume they were never saved. Should we hope for last-minute conversion? Of course. But we shouldn’t hope falsely.
how are you doing BTW?? I got your email the other day… have been out straight getting ready for Jamaica. It’s been crazy here!!
March 30th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
When I sent a test comment and it disappeared too, I figured maybe you were screening comments, and that was cool. It wasn’t until I saw Ichabod’s post that I concluded that it was well and truly gone.
My problem is that I don’t see God as just or perfect, and while I can buy that if he exists, he loves me, I think it’s a toxic kind of love that I don’t need.
With regard to relishing and chortling and whatnot: last year I did a paper on the Left Behind books. I had to read the whole series, and I would characterize the depictions of the suffering of the unconverted as pornographic. I don’t challenge the authors’ status as “saved,” because I am aware of a discrepancy between what I think is acceptable behaviour and what God thinks is acceptable behaviour–and a further discrepancy between what the Bible says is acceptable behaviour and what Christians say is acceptable behaviour–but as I’ve said before, I hope there is a Rapture, because I want these guys off my planet.
If I heard about Jamaica, it fell out of my head. Good luck, and have fun!
March 31st, 2008 at 4:49 am
New posters have to get approved; after that you can post freely. I’ll remove anything that’s grossly inappropriate and tell the poster, but thus far that’s not happened.
Quick comment on LB - I’ve read them up to a point… I think I have two more books to go and they’re not high on my priority list. I don’t think the authors were trying to be pornographic in their depiction of it all, so much as trying to clearly outline in as much detail as possible what will happen when, how, and to whom. I don’t see the (main) characters gloating or lording it over the unsaved folks. (BUT… will it all unfold as described? I personally believe the pre-trib rapture’s entirely possible… but I’ve also read very credible evidence for the church going through the tribulation as well, and going home after.)
So let me ask you this, now that I’ve rambled on… why do you not see God as just or perfect (or loving)? Are you up to talking about that?
::hugs:: Have a wonderful day…
March 31st, 2008 at 5:05 am
CAT!! I found your comments. Akismet caught them. I don’t remember it ever making a mistake, the whole time i’ve used WP!! So anyways I released them even though you’d essentially posted the same later; it “teaches” Akismet so it won’t flag you the next time. Though I honestly can’t sort why it would’ve now!!Sorry!
:::big hugs:::
March 31st, 2008 at 6:49 am
“Quick comment on LB - I’ve read them up to a point…”
You ought to make sure you read the last one - my favorite passage was near the end. At the “Great White Throne” judgement Jesus has tears in his eyes as he tells people why they’re gonna burn; I got a good laugh out of that.
March 31st, 2008 at 6:54 am
“My problem is that I don’t see God as just or perfect, and while I can buy that if he exists, he loves me, I think it’s a toxic kind of love that I don’t need.”
Amen
March 31st, 2008 at 7:32 am
Actually, I can really relate to how the Lord will feel on that day… just on a smaller scale. A good friend of ours is an addict who is in an abusive relationship. We’ve helped her, mentored her, counseled her, and prayed for her - and will continue to do so. (Much in the same way, the Holy Spirit tells people things) She continues to go back, go back, go back. We can’t rescue her. She has to make the decision to live clean and healthy. If she continues in her addictions, she will die. Much the same, if people continue in their sins, they will die. God the Holy Spirit can lead them, but like a horse to water, He can’t (won’t) make us drink. If we don’t drink of the living water that Christ offers, we cannot live.
March 31st, 2008 at 7:44 am
“Much the same, if people continue in their sins, they will die.”
If only that was all…..
March 31st, 2008 at 3:15 pm
What would you do, if you were God? Build an alternative paradise for everyone who hates you?
March 31st, 2008 at 3:17 pm
And actually here’s an interesting perspective on the topic:
http://ryanday.wordpress.com/2008/03/31/an-inconvenient-god/
March 31st, 2008 at 8:51 pm
(((((((((Kathi))))))))))
I am up for talking about why I don’t see God as perfect or just. Loving, I can buy, but as I said…
As for why I don’t see God as perfect or just…two of the foundations of Christianity are that he created everything and he sent his son to die for humanity. The way I interpret it–even if I disregard the genocides, the hardening of hearts, the arbitrary and occasionally hateful rules and whatnot–the foundations of his regime are lies, murder, and guilt. I know your experience is different, and you have a different interpretation, but it’s one I can’t share.
Actually, the “An Inconvenient God” post sums it up for me pretty well. Except, “inconvenient” is kind of an understatement. If I believed that that kind of figure–orderly, authoritarian, impatient–were in charge of the world, and ought to be in charge, and was right and just and correct, and was the ONLY thing that was right and just and correct…well, there would be no point to *me* then, would there? As the antithesis of all those things, the only way for me to place myself in the service of such a god would be to throw myself off a cliff or something. Which I think explains a great deal of my childhood. When I began to derive my morality, my self-image, and my understanding of the universe from something that was not God, I became a happier, kinder, more functional human being-shaped thing. I’m willing to deal with the consequences.
With regard to LB, I didn’t notice the lovingly described suffering until the later books. It’s detailed, but really detached. The response they seem to be going for, with the boils and locusts and bursting eyeballs is not, “Oh no…what a tragedy! How horrific!” but rather, “Ew, I hope that doesn’t happen to me. But look at it happening to the people who really deserve it! Neato! Ain’t God great?”
It was another evangelical blogger, Fred Clark, who pointed out the problems with even the first book, where after the disappearances Rayford pretty much steps over people so that he can go and do his own stuff. The authors’ world isn’t written in a way that even admits the possibility of stuff like that being questioned. Not only is it bad writing, but it’s morally horrifying. They’ve constructed a view of the world that is so narrow and distorted that it *can* eventually look at the most horrific human suffering and say, “Ew, I hope that doesn’t happen to me!” And not see anything wrong with that response.
If I were God, I wouldn’t build a paradise at all. People have different ideas of what they want, and one person’s utopia is another one’s dystopia. I’d rather have a world that everyone thinks is imperfect, but that still has its moments of beauty and joy for everyone.
But paradise really isn’t what I’m asking for. I’ve got all the heaven I want right now, and if it ended one second from now–if it had ended one second from when it began–it would still all be worth it. I just bristle a little at the thought that heaven ought to be the right choice for everyone. If that were true, then it wouldn’t be a choice at all.
April 1st, 2008 at 6:54 am
“What would you do, if you were God? Build an alternative paradise for everyone who hates you?”
And I’ve said this ’till I’m blue in the face, but I’ll say it again:
When death (DEATH, oblivion, non-existance, no more) isn’t enough, something is very, very wrong. Ask most people and they’ll say kicking a man when he’s down is wrong.
April 1st, 2008 at 6:58 am
Me, a poor, miserable, wretched sinner (at least according to Christians) doesn’t want anyone - ANYONE - tortured. Period. No matter what they did in their short life here on earth.