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There’s reasons I broke fellowship with Bud Press of the “Christian” “Research” “Service”, as well as his merry band of heresy hunters, a few years back (and those should be evident if you read this post and subsequent commentary)

Bud posted a lengthy reply in the comments, and I thought it was worthy of its own post:

Kathi, here is an response I provided on another blog. Hopefully, it will help you to have a better understanding of what the Bible says about visions of and seeing Jesus:

Now, this raises an interesting question of its own.

I have not asked for any help in understanding what the Bible says about visions and seeing Jesus. If I were to ask for help with such matters, it would be from one of several people who can, and do, speak life from the Word of God into my life on a regular basis. (In fact, I attended a Bible study last night where we discussed visions and prophecy)

So - only by virtue that he is the church’s self-appointed, self-anointed heresy hunter does Bud come here, to correct my allegedly grievous ways.

First, Jesus can do anything He wants. He is God Himself in human form, the Creator of the universe, and second Person of the Trinity. However, He will not contradict His word or change His mind to fit the occasion.

He allegedly won’t do anything that Bud dislikes, either. Like appear to me in a vision.

[snipping some rather unimportant stuff] Thus, concerning visions of Jesus, here are some important questions to consider:

– Where does the vision originate? (i.e., thoughts, day-dreams, imagination, personal curiosity, or desire?) –What is the purpose of the vision? – We know the Bible speaks of visions in both the Old and New Testaments. But if it is possible for modern-day Christians to have visions of Jesus, why would we need the Bible, when all we would have to do is talk to “Jesus”? – During a vision, do Jesus’ words perfectly match with His words in the Bible? – Who is claiming the vision? (solid, Bible-based Christian or false teacher?) – By what standard do Christians test a dream or vision of “Jesus”? Do we simply take the person’s word or trust God’s word? – How do modern-day Christians know what Jesus looks like?

I would assume the vision originated with Jesus, Bud. There’s no reason why dreams or imagination would play a part. I certainly wasn’t curious about Jesus, and definitely had no desire for Him. Yet He came and He said, “I love you. Come follow Me.”

As a result of the vision, my life made an abrupt turn-around, God put me in touch (through <gasp> a miracle) with a man who was uniquely positioned to share Jesus with me, and I went from the occult to Jesus within a week. What purpose would satan have in leading me to Christ? My vision of Jesus has been weighed by many a Christian and with the exception of you and a few of your merry band of heresy hunters, everyone’s said, “Glory to God!”

Are you inferring by your questions that Jesus is incapable of doing anything but parrot what He’s already said? Be careful there, Bud… you’re very close (or perhaps have stepped beyond) the point of creating a god of your own liking.

When a person’s word does not contradict God’s word, there’s no harm in taking them at their word (which, BTW, Bud, is why I don’t take you at yours).

You raise an important question mid-way through: why do we need visions, if we have the Bible?

In my particular case, at that point in my life if I’d picked up a Bible, I’d have either used it as toilet paper or as a weapon (in the physical sense. If someone offered it to me, I’d have clubbed them with it.) (And yet, Jesus said He LOVES me!). The Bible would never have reached me… but the Word of God loved me enough to save me anyway.

In a more general sense, we need visions, dreams, prophecy, etc. because God Himself said that we do, He abundantly supplies that need, and He said that those things will end when we see Him face to face.

Another important question is, “How do we know that the “Jesus” in a thought, dream, vision, or personal visitation is the real Jesus?

But another important question, how do we know it’s not the real Jesus, Bud?

If salvation comes when we confess with our mouths, believe in our hearts, repent of our sins, make Him the Lord of our lives… then my vision was certainly of Jesus, because that’s precisely what happened.

2. Out of curiosity, I did a Google search on “visions of Jesus” and came up with over 295,000 hits. Here are some descriptions of “Jesus” during a vision:

– sitting in a wheelchair.
– dressed in a nurse’s uniform.
– dressed in purple, or red, or a dirty white robe with dusty sandals. – laying in a bed covered with a sheet. – turned into three men, then one, then three again. – looked the same as in a picture on a wall. – had a deep voice, soft voice, thunderous voice, or communicated telepathically. – tall, short, stocky built, long hair,short hair, beard, clean shaven, blond hair, black hair, brown hair, reddish-brown hair, blue eyes, brown eyes, eyes like clear crystal, skin color of black, brown, white, pink. – wore crown of thorns, bleeding from hands and feet, wore wings. – appeared as a bright light, light-blue light, blinding light, coming with jet planes in the sky. – appeared on breakfast toast, grilled-cheese sandwich, fried fish-stick, potatoes, sides of buildings, inside churches, in the clouds, and in dark bedrooms and hotel rooms.

Here is a photo/vision of “Jesus in the clouds,” where those interested may spend between $5.00 to $109.00 for copies ( http://www.divineson.com/getacopy.asp ).

And on, and, on, and on.

Now, honestly - how many of those things are actually unbiblical, Bud? I think the grilled cheese and potatoes probably qualifies.

You have read the book of Revelation, haven’t you? how about the Old Testament?

Yet, the Bible teaches that Satan has the ability to deceive the believer and disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:3-4; 13-15).

Indeed, Bud… like I said in my comment a few minutes ago, that is what I fear for you (who is the author of hate, Bud? how about lies?)

3. During Old Testament times, the landscape was littered with false prophets, who foretold false dreams and visions -[and here Bud cites a bunch of them, which I'm deleting for space in this rather lengthy post]:

Mmmhmmm. And what of those who didn’t listen to what the real prophets had to say?

4. A modern-day dream, vision, or visitation of “Jesus” is a private, one-on-one encounter. But in John 18:20, Jesus said, “I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret.”

Bud, that is a perfect example of Scripture-twisting if I’ve ever seen one… best ask the Apostle Paul about that. (And, BTW, I’m not referring to his Acts 9 encounter and subsequent re-telling of those events)

Colossians 2:18-19: Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, TAKING HIS STAND ON VISIONS HE HAS SEEN, INFLATED WITHOUT CAUSE BY HIS FLESHLY MIND, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God (emp. added).

More twisting. Who’s practicing self-abasement? Not me. Who’s worried about worshiping angels (only you, Bud, and quite frankly you seem to delight in it). I take my stand in the Word of God - Jesus isn’t inflated without cause by my fleshly mind - He’s in His rightful place of glory in my heart.

Acts 3:18-21: But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, WHOM HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE UNTIL THE PERIOD OF RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time (emp. added).

In other words, Jesus will remain in heaven until His return, and He knows that modern-day people and believers’ do not know what He looks like.

Then I guess Paul didn’t see Him either.

Neither have all the Muslim and pagan converts who are seeing Him in visions much like my own. (I pray you’ll see Him one day too, Bud -)

Therefore, the following Scriptures apply to dreams, visions, and visitations:

Matthew 24:23: Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.

Matthew 24:26: So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.

That’s already been addressed in the comments. Jesus was referring to people such as the “Siberian Jesus”, the dude in Miami who claims to be Jesus and is having his followers tattoo 666 on themselves, and the antichrist. Nothing in either verse even remotely implies visions.

A good rule-of-thumb to remember is:

“If anything is contrary to Scripture, it is wrong. If anything is the same as Scripture, it is not needed. If anything goes beyond Scripture, it has no authority.” (Curtis Crenshaw)

Find that in the Bible, Bud…

I won’t belabor the point of, “if anything is the same as Scripture, it’s unneeded” - Scripture confirms Scripture, ergo it’s not needed? Give me a break.

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I’m not surprised you found my blog, Bud… going around seeking heresy like you do. I’ll probably be next to be “written up” on your website.

I’d be honored.

This entry was posted on Friday, July 18th, 2008 at 1:44 pm and is filed under Christian Topics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.