I’m really curious about Christians.
Why are Christians spending so much time on the supposed heresy of Todd Bentley… but they tend to leave the REAL heretics alone?
What would you call the slaughter of 48.5 million innocent babies?
Kathi Sharpe
I'm a church planter, missionary, freelance writer, web designer, and laid-down lover of Jesus from Level Cross, NC. I'm married with 3 wonderful grown children. We're currently planting a church and planning a missions trip back to Jamaica. I couldn't ask for a better life!
I write about Jesus, the Bible, revival, healing, the power of God, faith, and related topics. I throw in occasional recipes, home-making tips, news and politics items, and all sorts of random things just for fun.
July 18th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Hi Kathi:
Check out my website. We deal with a wide variety of false prophets and heretics–small and large.
In Christian love,
Bud Press, Director
Christian Research Service
http://www.christianresearchservice.com
July 18th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Bud, I know you quite well - in fact, you were the reason I gave up on “apologetics” and “discernment” and opted for the Real Deal instead.
July 18th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Hi Kathi:
I didn’t realize this was your blog when I posted my response. Nevertheless, please define the “Real Deal.” Does it include Todd Bentley?
July 18th, 2008 at 11:14 am
It includes Jesus
July 18th, 2008 at 11:15 am
BTW, Bud, if you’ll remember correctly, I’ve seen Jesus (I see angels too, have visions dream dreams prophesy and speak in tongues)… so by your own standard you’re posting on a heretic’s website.
Be careful. Love for Jesus and the things of God is contagious!
July 18th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Kathi, please allow me to rephrase the question. Do you consider Todd Bentley a representative of Christianity?
July 18th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Bud, have you taken the time to read my blog?
Who I see to be representative of “good Christians” and even of “not-so-good Christians” (and even non-Christians) should be abundantly clear.
July 18th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Kathi, I don’t recall your telling me you have seen Jesus and angels. But is does raise another question.
Which Jesus are you seeing? The Jesus of the Bible warns “do not believe” those who claim to see Him (Matthew chapter 24).
Surely you are familiar with the Apostle Pauls warnings in Galatians 1:6-9 and 2 Corinthians 11:3-4?
July 18th, 2008 at 11:35 am
I figure if it’s good enough for Paul, it’s good enough for me. (Grab your trusty Bible, Bud… I’m sure you can find what I’m talking about. if you’re willing to look!)
But as to what Paul said in Galatians -
I know angels (personally and on a first name basis) who preach a message other than the gospel, Bud. Remember? It’s not academic for me. It’s a fact. Let them be accursed, as Paul said.
As for the 2 Corinthians passage - I’m hoping that blockquote works in comments:
Indeed, Bud, that is what I fear for you.
July 18th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Kathi, I asked you two questions. 1) “Do you consider Todd Bentley a representative of Christianity?” 2) “Which Jesus are you seeing?”
You danced around both questions.
Are you implying or suggesting that I am following a counterfeit “Jesus”?
July 18th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Bud, I gave you Bible.
Now Bud Press says that answering a question with Scripture is tap-dancing. How INTERESTING.
You can take my implications any way you like, Bud. I won’t question your salvation - that’s up to God, and thank goodness that’s true for both of us.
July 18th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
But since Bud Press of the Christian “Research” Service does not want to research… and lest he accuse me of tap-dancing some more, here are answers to his questions.
Yes.
Jesus. You know. The One in the Bible.
Yes.
July 18th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Kathi, thank you for answering my questions. Other than your considering Todd Bentley a representative of Christianity, you claim to have seen Jesus. But Jesus clearly warns:
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him” (Matthew 24:23).
“So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them” (Matthew 24:26).
Now, who should people believe, you or Jesus?
July 18th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
How about Paul?
July 18th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
BTW, Bud, could you show me where Paul, Todd, or I have pointed to a Christ in the wilderness, in the inner rooms, or “here” or “there” (meaning physically present)… ?
July 18th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Kathi, the Apostles, including Paul, witnessed the resurrected Jesus Christ, and you know that. That is why they were called by Jesus to be apostles.
But what about Jesus’ warnings in Matthew chapter 24 (above)? You say, “I’ve seen Jesus.” But Jesus says you have not. And the Apostle Pauls warns about the counterfeit “Jesus.”
Again, who should people believe, you or Jesus?
July 18th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Kathi, when you answer my question, “Who should people believe, you or Jesus?” I will be glad to comment on your last post above.
July 18th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
But Bud.
That’s NOT what Jesus said.
Jesus was referring to men who CLAIM to be Christ.
He was not speaking of dreams or visions.
I could allow that perhaps Jesus will only be seen by people with an apostolic call (given that’s who we’re discussing here) - but really, that’s an argument from silence, and not a very good one at that.
July 18th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
People should believe Jesus, Bud.
You’re reading your agenda into the Word. It’s a classic case of eisegesis.
What I’m saying about my vision of Jesus is
a) in no way contradicting what He said (as referenced in Matthew, or anywhere else)
b) in every way in agreement with what He said
c) in every way opposed to the doctrines you espouse
but, amazingly,
d) in every way in agreement with good, biblical doctrine that does not read into the Word that which isn’t there
e) in line with what others have experienced (both in the Bible and in modern-day life)
July 18th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Kathi, here is an response I provided on another blog. Hopefully, it will help you to have a better understanding of what the Bible says about visions of and seeing Jesus:
First, Jesus can do anything He wants. He is God Himself in human form, the Creator of the universe, and second Person of the Trinity. However, He will not contradict His word or change His mind to fit the occasion.
Second, important questions need to be asked, not for the purpose of “answering a question with a question” or avoiding the issue, but simply because questions play an important role in providing answers.
Thus, concerning visions of Jesus, here are some important questions to consider:
– Where does the vision originate? (i.e., thoughts, day-dreams, imagination, personal curiosity, or desire?)
– What is the purpose of the vision?
– We know the Bible speaks of visions in both the Old and New Testaments. But if it is possible for modern-day Christians to have visions of Jesus, why would we need the Bible, when all we would have to do is talk to “Jesus”?
– During a vision, do Jesus’ words perfectly match with His words in the Bible?
– Who is claiming the vision? (solid, Bible-based Christian or false teacher?)
– By what standard do Christians test a dream or vision of “Jesus”? Do we simply take the person’s word or trust God’s word?
– How do modern-day Christians know what Jesus looks like?
Another important question is, “How do we know that the “Jesus” in a thought, dream, vision, or personal visitation is the real Jesus?
2. Out of curiosity, I did a Google search on “visions of Jesus” and came up with over 295,000 hits. Here are some descriptions of “Jesus” during a vision:
– sitting in a wheelchair.
– dressed in a nurse’s uniform.
– dressed in purple, or red, or a dirty white robe with dusty sandals.
– laying in a bed covered with a sheet.
– turned into three men, then one, then three again.
– looked the same as in a picture on a wall.
– had a deep voice, soft voice, thunderous voice, or communicated telepathically.
– tall, short, stocky built, long hair,short hair, beard, clean shaven, blond hair, black hair, brown hair, reddish-brown hair, blue eyes, brown eyes, eyes like clear crystal, skin color of black, brown, white, pink.
– wore crown of thorns, bleeding from hands and feet, wore wings.
– appeared as a bright light, light-blue light, blinding light, coming with jet planes in the sky.
– appeared on breakfast toast, grilled-cheese sandwich, fried fish-stick, potatoes, sides of buildings, inside churches, in the clouds, and in dark bedrooms and hotel rooms.
Here is a photo/vision of “Jesus in the clouds,” where those interested may spend between $5.00 to $109.00 for copies
( http://www.divineson.com/getacopy.asp ).
And on, and, on, and on.
Yet, the Bible teaches that Satan has the ability to deceive the believer and disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:3-4; 13-15).
3. During Old Testament times, the landscape was littered with false prophets, who foretold false dreams and visions:
Jeremiah 14:4: Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds.
Jeremiah 23:25: I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name, saying, ‘I had a dream, I had a dream!’
Lamentations 2:14: Your prophets have seen for you false and foolish visions; And they have not exposed your iniquity so as to restore you from captivity, but they have seen for you false and misleading oracles.
Ezekiel 13:2: Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy from their own inspiration, ‘Listen to the word of the LORD!’
Ezekiel 13:9: So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 22:8: Her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,’ when the LORD has not spoken.
And there are more false prophets today than anytime in the history of the world.
4. A modern-day dream, vision, or visitation of “Jesus” is a private, one-on-one encounter. But in John 18:20, Jesus said, “I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret.”
Colossians 2:18-19: Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, TAKING HIS STAND ON VISIONS HE HAS SEEN, INFLATED WITHOUT CAUSE BY HIS FLESHLY MIND, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God (emp. added).
Acts 3:18-21: But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, WHOM HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE UNTIL THE PERIOD OF RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time (emp. added).
In other words, Jesus will remain in heaven until His return, and He knows that modern-day people and believers’ do not know what He looks like. Therefore, the following Scriptures apply to dreams, visions, and visitations:
Matthew 24:23: Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
Matthew 24:26: So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.
A good rule-of-thumb to remember is:
“If anything is contrary to Scripture, it is wrong. If anything is the same as Scripture, it is not needed. If anything goes beyond Scripture, it has no authority.” (Curtis Crenshaw)
July 18th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
[...] I’m really curious about Christians. [...]
July 18th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Bud, I posted you a reply here… enjoy (but please reply to those issues in that post.)