I’ve been carefully contemplating what Jules in particular has had to say about my stance on heresy hunters. I’ve known Jules for years, respect her opinion, and would trust her with my life. That’s not to say that I agree with her on everything in the universe – I don’t think that’s possible for any two people to do anyways! – but her words have given me pause to consider.
I haven’t said much about it (and perhaps should have stated my intentions) because I wanted some time to reflect and pray.
So I have a question that’s come up.
Suppose I decided to tackle the issue of Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or the folks who call themselves “Christian” Wiccans… and I said, categorically, “these people are NOT saved.”
Would anyone here object? Why/why not?
How about if I tackled the issue of Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church (the folks who protest military funerals and wander about with “God hates fags” signs), and said that he’s not a Christian.
Objections? Why/why not?
I’m just curious.
“Suppose I decided to tackle the issue of Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or the folks who call themselves “Christian” Wiccans… and I said, categorically, “these people are NOT saved.”
Would anyone here object? Why/why not?
Not at all!
First of all, as far as I know, Mormons, JW’s, and Christian Wiccans don’t claim to believe the bible completely infallible – don’t claim to be ‘born again’ either (as far as I know).
Calling people that claim to be born again, and preach the gospel pretty much as you know it, unsaved and Jesus haters is a completely different thing. I know you know what I mean, Kathi.
But, in my opinion, attacking any group of people and pointing the finger at them, accusing them, and calling them names, makes you look just like those that you call heresy hunters, Kathi. You’re then bringing yourself down to their level.
Why not let it be, as I posted over on that site? If you feel they’re doing you wrong, then let God take care of it.
What Donna said.
Preach Jesus and the blood and don’t worry about what other denominations think. Let the blood of Jesus shine
It’s starting to seem to me like it’s ok to speak out against some people, but not others.
Regardless of what anyone else says, what would Jesus have you do, Kathi, and how would He have you behave towards people you disagree with? That’s the crux of it. You own your blogs; you’re responsible before God for what goes on in them, and His opinion is the only one that really counts.
And I might add, the same goes for all of us in how we speak and write and act. It’s a big responsibility and not something to be undertaken lightly or casually, because we will have to give account for all our actions. I don’t want to stand before Him and hear Him say ‘Boy, you really messed up there.’ Of course, it will happen because none of us is perfect at any stage of our walk, but let’s minimise that and endeavour to glorify Him in everything. A tall order and one we’ll pursue for the rest of our lives.
Be better actually to just pray for them to find Jesus if they don’t him and if confused to find healing
In order to answer this question accurately, I would need to know what you consider to be the “requirements” for someone to be saved.
From your church website, you state the following:
“Salvation is when we put our full faith and trust in Jesus and accept His sacrifice for our sins, making Him Lord of our lives.”
“if a person comes to Jesus at one point – perhaps living fully for Him, for a time – and then they deliberately and willfully turn away from Him, they have in effect given up their salvation.”
So, if we are assuming Heresy Hunters are saved (why would someone who doesn’t make Jesus the Lord of their lives fight so hard to rid the church of things they believe to be corrupt?) and we have no reason to believe that they have ever willfully and deliberately turned from Christ… then I would say you are wrong to say they aren’t saved, yes, and other such accusations such as hatred of Jesus or anything associated with Jesus, like God or the Holy Spirit or that which is good.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Christian Wiccans(???Such people exist????) I would say are all confused, but not that they hate Jesus. I would think it more accurate to say they don’t know the full story/accurate story depending on who we’re talking about. But with them, it’s different to say that they aren’t saved. It’s relatively safe to assume that these the first two groups have not accepted Christ as we believe Christ to be. They don’t know the same Christ–the real Christ–that you and I know. So how could they have accepted Him? I would never say they hate Jesus, nor would I claim to know with certainty that they are going to hell. I would pray pray pray for them, but I would not assume to know what will be the end result when they come face to face with Jesus. Christian Wiccans, I am not sure what you mean by that… I am confused by that statement so I don’t really know how to respond to that…. ?
Fred Phelps, I would say is completely and utterly confused, but if he has accepted Christ and has not WILLFULLY and DELIBERATELY turned away from Christ… then how could I say he isn’t a Christian? I believe he is deluded… but I don’t know the state of his soul.
Can you speak out against Fred Phelps’ actions? YES! PLEASE DO!!!!! Can you know the state of his soul? No. I don’t think so.
‘Confused’ doesn’t even begin to cover it, and I am aware that I appear to be backtracking on this one example – nevertheless I shall continue. I would personally be prepared to say, based on an assessment of his actions and words, I believe Fred Phelps isn’t a Christian because of his consistently vile ‘fruit’ going back many decades. There aren’t many people I’d step out and say that about, but he is one in whom I see absolutely no evidence of Christ (this is about the only topic I’ve seen on which Christians and non-Christians are universally in agreement!), and Westboro is a personality cult masquerading as a Christian church using the name Baptist:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/111-westboro-baptist-church
I haven’t been able to find a statement of belief on godhatesfags.com, nor am I aware of his testimony of salvation (the closest is the sex-obssessed letter to earthdwellers); but the latest sermon ostensibly on God’s grace (Eph 2:7) is a diatribe against ‘phony, lying, Arminian, sloppy agape love mongers of the sodomitical persuasion.’ Just because he can quote the Bible (so can the devil) and commentaries like Fausset and Gill doesn’t actually mean very much other than that he can read; he certainly doesn’t understand or obey. He even has the gall to quote 1 Jn 3:18: ‘My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.’
We are not talking about someone here who is a new believer, nor someone who merely disagrees on something and blogs about it; we are talking about someone who for decades has deliberately taught and practiced, indeed has dedicated his life to, the most disgusting hatred in the name of Christ. By the way, I’ll have to search for the link later but he has stated that only the people in his family cult are God’s elect.
The parting message in letter to earthdwellers is:
“You’ve sinned away your last day of grace; there is no remedy for this country and this world; God is your enemy; and America is doomed. Like Noah’s world and Sodom you’ve gone too far, you have crossed the line.”
No Gospel of grace there. He would oppose Christians who continue to preach repentance and the possibility of God’s forgiveness through Jesus. He is anti-Christ in a real sense.
Mmm…I wouldn’t object, because I wouldn’t dispute your right to say and believe whatever you think is right. But I would disagree. I think if you call yourself a Christian, as far as I’m concerned, you’re a Christian. People tell me there’s certain beliefs and behaviours consistent with the “right” kind of Christianity, but none of them really seem to agree with each other.
I do rather hope that Fred Phelps gets into heaven, though, first because I hope it helps with his temper and second because I sure don’t want him with me.
I think its pretty darn obvious Phelps does not love Jesus…
I’m reasonably sure, Jules, that Phelps has a “testimony” of “salvation” – something I heard on television forever ago. Wish I could remember exactly what/how/etc.
OK, so it’s ok to say that Phelps does not love Jesus. Why? Because he’s a bully who approaches what he sees as sin in a hateful, unbiblical, non-redemptive fashion…
One thing I like about this discussion – it’s sending me on a journey through the Bible
God’s given me two words to research: “reviling” and “injustice”. I’ll be posting some Scripture later.
We must remember no matter what we do as born again believers its to be done in the love of Christ. Remember God doesn’t dislike or hate the person, its the sin inside of the person that is disliked by God. I disagree with people who call themselves born again and will call out certain sins and bash them, but won’t call out the ones in themselves. I believe the word says “For all have sinned and come short the glory of God”
It seems to me that what Phelps is trying to do is ‘shut up heaven in men’s faces’ and deny people any chance of salvation by telling them it’s too late to repent, and that God has not elected them for salvation.
Trouble is that Phelps can say what he wants, but we all know that salvation is open to all who repent. Lets see ” If you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, thou shalt be saved”
I still stand by what I said…
I spent many, many hours watching all the interviews and what-not of the Phelps’ on youtube. One person asked Shirley what they had to do to get into heaven, and she said “Trust Jesus Christ, turn from your sin and repent!” That doesn’t seem too far off to me. They never ever (as far as I’m aware) preach grace unless asked. Yes, that’s a huge problem. I still wouldn’t presume to know the state of their soul.
The only family member who ever left the church, Phelps’ son, said his father was a very sick(mentally), very mean man.
Believe you me–when people who are not Christians ask me about WBC, I make it very clear that their actions are not in line AT ALL with Christ’s teachings.
But… many people’s actions are not. Others’ actions are less offensive. But as far as I have been able to gather, Kathi, you are protestant and no sin is worse than another in your book, right?
So what’s the difference between Phelps and any other person that says they are a Christian but their life tells a different story?
I think it’s important not to be so presumptuous to think that we actually know the hearts or prayers of others. I certainly try never to do so. Many Christians will tackle WBC, Mormons, JW…. but you’ll notice very, very few comment on the Jewish faith. I wonder why that is? Most I know wouldn’t dare presume to know what’s in their hearts. I wonder why that doesn’t work across the board…
Oh and Rev–Phelps is not the only one who believes that salvation is not open to everyone. All Calvinists (far as I’m aware) think the sheep have been sorted from the very beginning.
Alycin I have a problem with people who don’t preach salvation the way Christ spoke it in the Bible. Man has taken so much out of the word to fit what they believe and the principals of the teaching of Jesus has gone down the tubes
I also wouldn’t want to be those when they stand before God at judgment day. Salvation is for all, but not all will chose salvation. My father did not. that is what is so sad
Rev, yes, it is a problem when people do not preach salvation. But I don’t automatically judge someone who does not as unsaved.