Jules posted a couple of links to commentaries about Todd Bentley in the Lakeland Leadership Lessons post.
Here’s more information, along with commentary, from Peter Kirk’s Gentle Wisdom blog: Todd Bentley’s Apostolic Oversight Team in Action
In response to Jules’ question – “I’m not interested in swooping round the net to find salacious gossip; I’m trying to sort out in my own mind what went wrong where and what lessons can be learned.” — to be honest, I’m not sure we’ll ever know the whole story. And, I’m not sure that we should. Whether TB repents or not, whether TB is restored or not, do we – even though we’re brethren – have the “right” to every detail, whether lurid or mundane, of another’s life?? To be honest, I’m starting to see parallels between TB and the media’s treatment of, say, Paris Hilton and Brittney Spears. I mean, who CARES if PH got her puppy’s legs waxed yesterday? The whole TB debacle is taking on that level of paparazzi-fever.
Meanwhile, SLW at the Sound of Thunder blog has a VERY interesting take on the topic of BIBLICAL discipline: “How do you mend a broken part?” It’s almost certain to incite a riot in some circles. I found one of his commenters – ironically named “Todd” – He says (in part): I found myself angry at the Biblical method of dealing with a transgressor. I wanted justice, not mercy and forgiveness! How quickly we forget the mercy of our Savior!
Wow. That’s telling about the church as a whole. How many are crying out for justice – rather than mercy?
Zechariah 7:9 “Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Execute true justice, Show mercy and compassion Everyone to his brother.’”
Amen.
At this stage of the game, prayer for TB is the answer and his family
Agreed, Rev. I’m not saying I want or need to be a fly on the wall of Bentley’s restoration; it’s enough for me if he’s getting the genuine counsel he needs.
What I’m trying to get at is why so many charismatic and evangelical ministries fall. Yes, inherent sin is the easy answer, and it certainly does cover it in a very general sense, but why is the movement so prone to it? Why is there a pattern? Is it lack of training? Lack of discernment? Addiction to experiences? Hero-worship? Arrogance? Chucking out the Bible? Satanic interference? What?
If we don’t learn lessons when this happens, then it’s just as likely to happen again. And then more people get hurt, which is the bottom-line for me because I’ve been there. Shonnah and kids get hung out to dry while apostles flock round to minister to Todd, GodTV finds a new racehorse for its stable to bring the punters in, and all those hurt by Lakeland are left staring at the wall wondering what happened.
Agreed the whole Bentley family need our prayers for them.
I dispute what was being taught I could not believe that leadership had been naive enough to place him where they had, but this is a family that needs peace, space and real support and discipling away from the public arena.
I pray they get what they need for relationships to be restored.
What I would like to see is proactive scripturally based procedures put in place so that weaker brothers are not put in situations that can lead to sin that could easily shame the name of Christ.
The reactive responses I have read from some of the leaders in the charismatic movement ignore the idea of the responsibility before God of leadership.
Personally, I am mnore concerned with intercedding for those who have been defiled by this heretic, and the so called apostles and prophets who propped this fraud up. todd Bentley is a deceiver, nothing more nothing less. Have you noticed not trace of the man. I guess he’s enjoying the new palatial digs he is living in. Half a million dollars of money that could have been used to make Christ know to the lost oversees, all for Bentley to enjoy a six bedroom home at their expense. Probably a new Harley some new tattoo’s, and cah money to essentially live quite well from the book sales, and DVD’s.
As far as his restoration, why would anyone trust the very people who are vacuous when it comes to biblical discernment, the Joyner’s and Wagners’ etc, these new agers could bring the truth if there lives depended on it, and now gain, lecture us to be loving, gentle,a nd patient with the “process.”
Ron, your comments are becoming more and more unwelcome here – not because of their content per se (Jules and Caitlin and others have expressed similar concerns) but because of the underlying attitude. I’d hate to ban you – but consider this your one and only warning.
on the subject of “palatial” digs – I haven’t seen the house and don’t know what the market is in Abbotsford or wherever he bought it. However, nicer-neighborhood five and six bedroom homes in this area cost between 300-500K.(and in the city, you need to be careful where you buy – trust me). Yes, they’re “nice” homes with granite countertops and nice landscaping and attached garages – but you wouldn’t expect a trailer, would you?
So, here’s a guy and his wife (1 bedroom) and three kids (3 bedrooms) and a home office (1 bedroom) and a guest room.
So, sure, he could’ve bought a double-wide… :::yawn:::
Ron when someone like Dutch Sheets posts as he has I hope for God to bring Good out of very nasty and human situation and pray for those who have been caught in the whole mess WHOEVER they are.
Whilst a human being is still living and breathing on this earth there is hope they can be fully restored to God through Jesus Christ. It is the very reason Christ came to us, so that sin filled man could be restored to a relationship to God.
My spiritual home is the desert. I am unashamedly a New Monastic rather than charismatic. I am more likely to be found
joining with monastics in silent prayer than waving my hands and jumping up and down.
When leaders of the church do wrong they are accountable before God regardless of the movement or denomination they belong to.
ALL movements and denominations have had teaching that is false, people who have messed up, leaders who make some of the Kings look nice people and some very bad things done in Christ’s name.
It is how leaders respond when they become aware that they have fallen short that makes the difference.
If they refuse to account to God then God is more than capable to call them to account to Him or remove them and force them to account to Him because God is a God of love beyond our human ability to understand.
If they refuse to hear Him even then then it is Christ who is the one who is fit to judge them for only he truly knows our hearts.
Actually I suspect Todd is very confused and stressed right now, and I don’t blame him for keeping a low profile. Hopefully he will turn to Jesus. It wasn’t just Todd who was the problem in all this; it was everyone, leaders and followers alike, who made him into a figurehead. It’s very easy for God to get pushed out when things get exciting, even when we think we’re serving Him in the midst of it.
Jules, is it that “so many” fall, or is it that when loud people fall, they’re in the headlines?
Everyone should note that if TB was not keeping a low profile, the resulting shriek heard ’round the world would shatter ever piece of glass on the planet…
Dunno, Kathi. It does seem the bigger and louder and more controversial you are, the more likely there’s going to be disaster. Maybe pride is the root of it – if you believe your own legend, you stop relying on God and think He’ll look away if you bend the rules, and instead He exposes it in His own timing. We have our own share of it over here – ‘Bishop’ Michael Reid at Peniel, for instance.
I dunno either, Jules – I can name several preachers no one’s ever heard of, in far more trouble than TB. And no one really will hear of them.
Question why do people fall. Because to many people put them to high and they have to keep up with that and the pressure becomes to heavy to handle and then sin comes in. My question is if it was true TB was under counseling for the first affair then he and the leaders of the ministry are at blame as the word says if a man can’t control his household how can he control and serve the house of the Lord. I have a mentor in Christ that I fully trust and if he feels any of the minister under him are in error or out of the will of God he calls and speaks then and offers advice and whatever is needed. We need one to remember we are all human. The flesh is weak and the enemy knows this. If being around women is a problem don’t go around them. If drinking is a problem don’t go into a bar. Very simple. But now, even though and Kathi knows this from me of being in disagreement with the ways of TB, its not time to rub salt in any wound. Its time to ask God to heal him in his mind, body and his spirit. Someone should have used more wisdom in allowing him to preach at Lakeland if still in counseling for his first problem. All we do then is put him or anyone under stress they don’t need to be under. Its like releasing a deer into the wild that never lived there and hope they survive. Its difficult to do
Yes, there are those who would attempt to brazen something like this out and carry on regardless. Or pop up elsewhere, like Robert Tilton – that man has returned so often he’s like a bad curry that just won’t stay down.
BTW, don’t get me wrong – I do agree that pride is/can be a prob when you’re a “big name” and that often contributes to issues.
Kathy so right there
Todd bought a six bedorom home in LAkeland, and quite honestly after what he was allowed to due regarding the numerous hereise and outright lie and the doctrine of demons he was preaching, why does he deserve a six bedorrom home or rather even need one. He has threee kids? Does each chiled when they visit need there own bedroom. And what the heck does Todd need an office for? He is needs to get a job selling something else besides his false teachings. A half a million dollars CASH for this thing, that came out ofd the pockets of those who thought this was a valid authentic move of God. Biblically it has been proven it was a farce, or a show at best. He deserves ZERO, and we are commanded to have nothing to do with him.
Everyone is sooo, concerned about Bentley, I am concerened about what is happeneing to my brethren that keep pumping money and allegiance towards ministried like this, when over and over again they continue to teach falsely, and promise financial prosperity to those who write em’ a check, which is a blasphemous lie. God isn’t going to be obligated to bless those who give unto falsdehood, no matter how good their intnetions.
Should I give to the Moromon Chruch if asked, or to JW’s so they can spew their doctrine of demosn…HELL NO! Should we continue to support those like Bentley, and Joyner, and the whole host of others who rammed this down our throats,a nd transparently are false, and couldn’t discern anything true….HELL NO! Have nothing to do with them.
Ron – given what’s happened, I’m willing to bet there will be investigations into the financial side of things.
Ron, but the word says we must love our neighbor as ourselves. TB may have made a mistake, but isn’t it the way of Christ to pray for him when down that God will intercede in his life and to lift him up. Did he make mistakes, yes, but then again He that is without sin cas the first stone. I never like his ways and quite vocal about it. Should he have been allowed to preach, with the history coming out now, no. But my God tells me to pray for him.
Ron, I did warn you. Bye.
For the record, I’m not sure where Ron’s gotten his information from, but I’m not finding any property registered to Todd Bentley, Shonnah Bentley, or Fresh Fire in the Polk County Register of Deeds records. (Note: their form does NOT work in Firefox, use IE instead)
I’ve put Ron under an IP ban.
I hate to do something like that. There’s plenty of room here for discussion and debate and disagreement, but when you’re being ugly on purpose (err… that’s a Southern term) it makes me ill (that’s another Southern term).
I’ve been pondering what Jules said a ways back, about why it is that big-name ministries tend to end up in big-time sin.
Perhaps it’s because big-time ministers know what would happen if they fessed up to even something minor, or even a temptation, before it became big…
Kathi actually it was getting ugly. Like I said I did my disagreement but I also know that when a person is down you don’t keep kicking him
I think you did what you had to do, Kathi – the warning wasn’t heeded.
As to your point of fessing up to minor stuff, I think that kind of illustrates the problem – putting people on a pedestal because we live in an idolatrous culture which needs ‘them up there’ and ‘us ordinary folk.’ It’s a symptom of how the prevailing culture has pervaded the church.
Trish Tillin wrote about this on her now defunct Banner Ministries site – she spoke about the well-known British charismatics in the 60s and 70s and how they were ordinary people that you had lunch with and just chatted to at conferences, and how it all got skewed with the likes of the Copelands sweeping in with their limousines and posh hotels and performing on stage. (This isn’t an anti-American post, by the way). One of the things I like about Mark Driscoll from Mars Hill Seattle is how real and honest he is.
Here’s the deed transfer to FFM recorded in July:
[url=http://www.polkpa.org/CamaDisplay.aspx?OutputMode=Display&SearchType=RealEstate&ParcelID=232926141966000290]Link[/url]
Perhaps it’s because big-time ministers know what would happen if they fessed up to even something minor, or even a temptation, before it became big…
Bingo! Because we don’t correct leaders according to the Bible, they have to hide things or face the destruction of their calls. When they get “caught” others help them hide it so it doesn’t spell the end of ministry. If ministers were allowed to be human and faced biblical discipline rather than revenge, jealousy, arbitrariness, perhaps things could be dealt with when a acorn rather than dealing with the chaotic panic the falling of a mighty oak causes.
Here’s the link to the property deal, and the details are as Ron said:
http://www.polkpa.org/CamaDisplay.aspx?OutputMode=Display&SearchType=RealEstate&ParcelID=232926141966000290
Yeah Jules thanks but I see the home was bought by Fresh Fire Ministries I might have missed it but didn’t see Todd Bentleys name mention
SLW, that’s pretty much where I was going – acorn, rather than an oak. Or even the acorn before it falls into one’s life. If ministers had someone to whom they knew they could be absolutely accountable when they have a “stray” thought about, say, adultery — knew they’d be counseled and not judged, and not removed from ministry, ostracized, and fed to the wolves — how many of those stray thoughts would be prevented from becoming actions?
I think a lot of leaders never say something at the “there could be an acorn” stage, because they see what happens.
In what other army are the officers tortured and fed to the enemy if they get shot?
I’m not so sure that it’s all as Ron said and implied, Jules. It looks like they got a very good deal on the property. Six bedrooms, 4 baths, lakefront.
Pulling some figures: Mortgage should run around 2,917.86 per month. Checking on rentals.com I’m only finding one home/condo/apartment that size, for $2300/month – plus you have to pay, of course, significant out of pocket for deposits and the like.
So – with a difference of a couple hundred bucks a month, and the option to buy and build equity (in a growing area), or rent and toss the money in the lake, I think they made the wiser financial decision.
Well I’ve got no axe to grind on the house; just provided the link to the property deal. The house was bought by FFM at the time when Bentley was involved with them as a Board member (who signed the paperwork on behalf of FFM?), and quite possibly as a local base for him (making a not unreasonable assumption on that point). No idea what will happen to it now, and I didn’t contribute financially to it in any case.
“In what other army are the officers tortured and fed to the enemy if they get shot?”
Yes that’s very true. But if you have an officer who’s gone renegade and is causing damage and got shot in the skirmish, the first thing you do is take his gun away, no? You’ve got to protect the other soldiers as well as taking him off the battlefield, with the intention that he gets medical attention and is not given a gun again until his superiors are sure he’s no longer a danger to others. Because a soldier like that is a liability to himself and to others.
I agree very much with the idea of accountability; if that’s in place then things needn’t degenerate to the point where a renegade soldier goes wild.
I’m reminded of the Corinthian situation which I’m studying at the moment. As I ponder the Lakeland saga my views are being modified on an almost daily basis – not in my assessment of the original event (I believe God blew it up for doctrinal and practical dangers as much as because of Bentley’s sin), but in how to deal with the aftermath. Paul has some very hard words about unrepentant sinners and advocates putting one outside the church, but the others he seems to call to repentance for their folly while still in the church.
Is it right that Bentley is no longer ministering? Yes – he needs to focus on his relationship with God, and start to sort things out with his family. But I don’t recall anywhere in scripture where a sinning leader is put outside the camp for a specific period of time. A big topic that I’m still pondering. I think Bentley’s attachment to the other woman isn’t the greatest of the issues he has to work through, and for that he has my prayer support.
But I think the bigger picture is a challenge to all the charismatic leaders in how they’ve conducted themselves and allowed the whole situation to develop instead of failing to protect the church from error. Wagner’s lot have set themselves up as an apostolic network but I don’t so far see much evidence that they’re contending for the truth.
@Kathi
Thanks for the response, I absolutely agree with you. If we actually followed that method, the ranks of ministry would be much healthier.
@Jules
If an officer has gone renegade, there is a given biblical order to deal with it. It doesn’t include an a priori assumption that he’s no longer fit for combat. A strong, clear rebuke, followed by a response of submission and contrition is what is called for. Who exactly, do you suppose is ever in a position to ensure that an officer is no longer “a danger to others.” If Peter and Paul had eggs go bad in their baskets, what would make any of us feel we were in a position to be more discerning than they were able to be? We have one mediator, which is Christ, why should we put someone between the officer and Christ?
SLW – I’m not disagreeing in general with what you’re saying. My point is Bentley was allowed for too long to demonstrate unbiblical practices in terms of his public ministry. It’s possible someone on the apostolic team rebuked him for the angel stuff, the violence, the moneygrabbing, the promotion of false teachings. But to the general public it wasn’t apparent that anything was done; he had tacit approval from his overseeing team. The problem with Lakeland was everyone’s problem: Bentley’s for doing and promoting unbiblical things, the apostolic network for not providing correct oversight for everyone’s protection (including his), and the public’s for flocking to him and not discerning the very apparent errors.
Jules,
I understand, and am not unsympathetic to your concerns. The Kingdom of God is not a carnival, and should not be promoted nor performed like it is.