A recent commenter raised the issue of the “evils” of the “manifest sons of God” doctrine, so I thought I’d post on the subject and open it up to discussion [warning: this is not by any means a short post].
The short version of it all is, “Most of what’s said by the heresy hunters is either outright fabrication, deliberate twisting of facts, or the obfuscation of Biblical truth. Their goal seems to be to subvert the church and turn Her from Her destiny and purpose in the Lord.”
I’m often accused of being “latter rain”, “river”, “manifest sons of God”, “IHOP” (that’s prayer, not pancakes), “NAR” (New Apostolic Reformation), “WOF” (Word of Faith) and even just plain weird (I prefer “peculiar” 
) I tend to resemble those remarks… but I’m not sure I can be neatly defined as any one of those things (nor can what I believe be defined by a denomination).
Perhaps one day the heresy hunters will write about me. 
We all have goals, right?
Most of these descriptive terms were in vogue log before I even got saved (and some came into fashion before I was even born). They seem to be fairly interchangeable and there’s considerable overlap between them. I have read a number of heresy-hunter websites and even a few reasoned and reasonable critiques of these supposed doctrines and I end up rather confused.
Reading over what the HH’s say on their sites, it’s easy to conclude that at least some of what they are discussing is “bad doctrine”. Some.
But here’s the confusion with the “some” part of it: It doesn’t really seem to exist in the wild (or if it does, it must be quite rare). I’ve spent considerable amounts of time in churches and ministries and around people who fit the HH’s criteria as MSoG. In fact, I know a few of them personally. I’ve never heard much of what the heresy hunters rail against from any of these teachers… or if I do, it’s in a context that has led me to conclude that heresy hunters twist and outright fabricate things. (Big Surprise to everyone… right?) Some of these fabrications are about things that I witnessed personally – it’s kind of hard to convince an eyewitness otherwise 
There are a few pockets of church-folk in extreme error. For example, a handful of Branham’s followers concluded that he’s the messiah and will return. The fact that the vast majority of people do not believe this really doesn’t deflate the heresy hunters allegations… “because a few do, all must” is their motto.
It’s very, very rare that I read a critique of these doctrines that is truthful, honest, and biblical. I don’t mind those and I think they are necessary in the Body of Christ. Our doctrines should be able to stand the test of reasoned criticism. Even when agreement does not result, all are edified and the Church is able to move forward in unity. That’s not the tactic of heresy hunters. Their modus operandi is to cause division. Most make wild accusations, show edited clips on youtube, draw broad conclusions, and attempt to deceive the masses into being twice as much a son of hell as they are.
It’s true that the HH’s make points which are truthful (for example, prophecy and angelic visitations are really common amongst this crowd, and the HH’s like to complain about these things). But really – their truthful points all seem to boil down to the fact that they are jealous because they don’t hear from God and operate in His miracles. They want the church to become excellent pew-sitters; nice and tightly controlled. (sorry, y’all…)
So the alleged problems with Manifest Sons of God (MSoG) that the commenter alluded to…
I’m going to draw from the HH site “Let us Reason”, partly because their discussion is fairly thorough, and partly because their vernacular is not as hateful as certain others. According to them, the MSoG has a whole long list of problems. The following list of “problems” is distilled from one of their articles:
- A connection to William Branham.
- belief in the restoration of the Church and of five-fold ministry (apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, pastors)
- belief in authority
- The authority to speak blessings… and even curses
- Denial of the rapture “in the classic sense” (that one made me ROFL)
- that Jesus will not come bodily, but that the “body of Christ” will rise up as the visible return of Christ.
- belief that the Church must be mature before Christ’s return
- spiritual warfare
- signs and wonders (including healings, seeing angels and demons, seeing visible glory, manifestations, prophecy, etc.)
- revival
- prayer and fasting
- taking dominion over the power of satan and reclaiming lost territory
- anti-denominationalism
- unity in the church
- end-time harvest of souls
- turning the world right-side up (a quote from Rick Joyner, saying we will do so)
- belief that we are, in fact, little gods and/or are equal to Christ.
- (quoting from LUR) The Central theme to Manifest Sons of God doctrine is the belief that sonship to God comes through higher revelation via apostles and prophets. The Christian life, has levels to go through, to reach maturity. The first level is that of servant of God, the next is that of friend of God, following this is to become a son of God and the realization of gods ourselves. much like the new age potential in man)
- “A perfection of the saints, immortalization, and the attainment of being Christ as we become just like Christ in nature and ability.” (That’s a full quote from LUR..I just couldn’t bear to paraphrase that one!)
- (Quoting again from LUR) Quite a difference from the saints inheriting the kingdom when Christ comes and being servants (co-heirs) in it, adopted as sons (Rev.20:6). This is not a kingdom operated by humility but of power and force. This is why the take it by force teaching , and the pulling down of strongholds. Never mind that neither Jesus or an apostle never taught this to others, because this is what God is doing now. Its new, its fresh!
Yup. A long list. Let’s look at it one by one.
A connection to William Branham.
Any time a heresy hunter wants to “expose” something as “evil”, they connect it to Branham. Branham’s an interesting fellow. I know someone who knew him (and many of the other healing revivalists) personally, so I perhaps have an interesting perspective on the man.
Branham is an example of a man who began well and then wandered off into error. It’s been said that the reason for his troubles is that he stepped beyond the bounds of the anointing God gave him. There’s no doubt that he was gifted by God to heal people. He wasn’t, however, anointed as a teacher of theology. Reading over his doctrines, I can see where he got them from and why he drew those conclusions. (Yes, I do disagree with some of his conclusions and doctrines. But I also disagree with the doctrines of, say, Calvin and Wesley and can blow holes in both with the canon of Scripture – does that negate their ministries?
In fact, I hold that the doctrine of Calvinism, especially in its hyper-Calvinistic form, is dangerous and evil - and yet h-C’s are still my brethren)
One thing about Branham that drives the heresy hunters wild is that he had a slightly different view on the nature of the Godhead than most. He ministered openly in both Oneness and Trinitarian churches, and taught that Father/Son/Holy Spirit are offices and that Christ is supreme. He’s often accused of being Oneness, but that’s not true. I need to say here for clarification – I’m strictly Trinitarian. But I’ll minister alongside my Oneness brethren just like I’ll minister alongside my Reformed brethren.
Does the fact that he erred greatly later in life negate his entire ministry? No. Does the fact that a handful of his followers really went off the deep end negate his entire ministry? No.
Belief in the restoration of the Church and of five-fold ministry, belief in authority, and the authority to speak blessings… and even curses
I really hate that something so incredibly simple in the Word of God becomes so fraught with misunderstandings… and worse.
Five-fold ministry is simple. God calls people to ministry. People minister. God gives them the authority to fulfill this ministry. This authority covers an awful lot of territory within God’s stated purposes for ministry.
Most church people (even heresy hunters) agree that authentic pastors are called to ministry and have (or should have) authority in the church. And most people will agree that some people are called to be evangelists (Billy Graham, for instance) and, if they think about it, will agree that some are called as teachers.
The offices of Apostle and Prophet are treated a bit differently. It’s ok for the pastor to have a little power (not too much), but nobody today is an Apostle or a Prophet… right? Wrong.
God established these offices and nothing (not one thing) in the Word removes them. Don’t believe me? Read Ephesians 4. The offices today are no different from the offices then.
And speaking of authority…just as the folks in the NT had the authority to bless and to curse (see for example, Acts 13:10, Hebrews 13:20+), so do five-fold ministers today. Must five-fold ministers be walking in God’s will? Of course. Will we mess up? Of course. And yet our most holy, omniscient, omnipotent God has trusted man to do His work from the very beginning of time. If God trusts man to get’r'done… shouldn’t man trust God trusting man?
Denial of the rapture “in the classic sense” (that one made me ROFL), that Jesus will not come bodily, but that the “body of Christ” will rise up as the visible return of Christ, and belief that the Church must be mature before Christ’s return
I literally laughed out loud when I read the “denial of the rapture in the classic sense” part. Why? Because the pre-tribulation rapture of the church is a relatively new doctrine. The church going through the tribulation would be a “classic” doctrine.
I’ve posted at length here on the blog regarding my beliefs about the rapture, so I won’t get into all of that (I’ve become a post-tribber, tho hey! it wouldn’t be bad to be wrong). The fact is that an excellent case can be made either way, and even a fairly good case could be made for a mid-tribulation rapture. All from Scripture. Among “river” people (see the broad list near the top of this post), there’s a broad range of views on the rapture; mostly standard pre- and post-trib.
I have never heard it taught that Jesus will not return bodily and personally. I have, however, heard it taught (and teach myself) that the Body will rise up and become mature before His return. If Jesus is returning for a pure, spotless Bride… we’ve got a long way to go! I do not believe that the entire church (that is, everyone who attends a building on Sunday morning; from pew-sitter to pastor) is part of THE Church. God will separate the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats, the wise from the foolish. I don’t believe for one minute that the rapture is going to happen, leaving people who thought they were Christians behind. That is taught in a large number of churches. Perhaps they’re right! But I sure don’t see it that way in the Bible. Those who are Christ’s are His, and those who are not are not, and this will be evident to all. In that day people may try to argue and manipulate… but they’ll know, and they’ll know why.
The Church will go through the tribulation – attacked by the enemy but standing strong even in deadly persecution (much like Steven in Acts 7), and protected from the wrath of God that will be poured out on the world.
If you’d like Scripture, check out my post on the timing of the rapture.
Spiritual warfare and taking dominion over the power of satan and reclaiming lost territory
signs and wonders (including healings, seeing angels and demons, seeing visible glory, manifestations, prophecy, etc.)
prayer and fasting
I get the biggest kick out of people who rail against these things. I mean… really. I think the heresy hunters sit with an exacto knife and anything related to warfare, wonders, and overmuch prayer must be excised from their Bibles. Jesus taught it – the apostles lived it – and some live it today (Mark 16:16-20)
anti-denominationalism
unity in the church
Anti-denominationalism: herein lies a big can of worms that I’m going to open, with glee.
Denominations are extrabiblical (EB). That means most heresy hunters are IFB *and* EB.
That doesn’t mean that denominations are bad (or good) – it just means that they’re not outlined in Scripture. Of course each denomination has their own focus, and that’s not a bad thing in and of itself. Paul talked about the Body of Christ being like a body… eyes and ears, fingers and toes. It’s similar to the five-fold ministry and the gifts, but on a broader scale. Some churches are called to see – and others to hear – and others to do. If this concept intrigues you, you should read John Burton’s 20 Elements of Revival and see his outline of the city church.
I’m semi-anti-denominationalist
The Church should have unity. We should exude unity. Aren’t we supposed to be one in Jesus? Two pieces of the unity puzzle are apostolic oversight and prophetic revelation. In the NT, apostles and prophets bring both direction and correction to the Body. Doesn’t mean we’ll all become clones or lose our church’s distinctiveness. There’s tremendous room within unity for Baptists and Presby’s and Pentecostals and _______. Apostolic oversight doesn’t mean we’d all become Catholic, with a pope telling us what to do. It would mean we’d cease bickering over stupid stuff and fighting for control, and I suspect that wolves dislike this concept.
A huge part of the problem today is that self-appointed people (that’d be heresy hunters) are trying to function in the roles of apostles and prophets, bringing correction where they lack the authority to do so. I do find it amusing that the same folks who holler about apostolic and/or prophetic control are the folks trying to control everyone they run across…
revival and an end-time harvest of souls, turning the world right-side up (a quote from Rick Joyner, saying we will do so)
I’m not going to address revival here because I’ve done so in numerous past posts. See #1, #2, #3 on the subject. Suffice to say – revival is coming. So is the falling away. Which side will you be on?
I will, however, address the silly slam against Rick Joyner for saying that we will turn the world right-side up. LUR goes wild about what RJ had to say on the subject. After all, the Bible says that the apostles turned the world upside down, right? If we turn it right side up, we’re reversing it! <gasp! how awful!>
Let’s look at this logically. It’s all there in Acts 17. The Jews get ticked off at the actions of Paul and Silas, gather a mob, and storm Jason’s home. They claim that P&S&co have turned the world “upside down”. They are quoted as saying this (it’s not what God said).
From a non-Christian perspective, I suppose their little worlds did get turned upside down and wrongside out. But in God’s perspective, didn’t the apostles go about RIGHTING things?
Hmmm.
belief that we are, in fact, little gods and/or are equal to Christ.
This is a topic that I am still researching, because most of the clips and quotes I’ve seen of various preachers espousing this doctrine are heavily edited. If anyone out there has a videom audio, or article that is on the ministry website of the person who said it (if you’re complaining about Benny Hinn, for example, the clip/article is on HIS website), I’d be happy to look at it. I don’t waste my time on heresy hunter sites or youtube (unless it’s an event I was at personally so I know wherein the edits lie)
Most of what I’ve seen thus far and been able to research leads me to conclude that this alleged doctrine is something the HH’s have taken far, far out of context. Nobody’s saying that humans are, or can become, gods or God. They are saying that if we’re sons and co-heirs we’re living far short of our potential and calling (I’ll address some of that in the next part)
But I’m willing to examine evidence (real evidence, that is).
Sonship via higher revelation // Perfection, immortality, attainment of being Christ
This is one of those things that just make me shake my head in wonder… “You get what? From WHAT?”
(quoting from LUR) The Central theme to Manifest Sons of God doctrine is the belief that sonship to God comes through higher revelation via apostles and prophets. The Christian life, has levels to go through, to reach maturity. The first level is that of servant of God, the next is that of friend of God, following this is to become a son of God and the realization of gods ourselves. much like the new age potential in man)
(And still more from LUR) “A perfection of the saints, immortalization, and the attainment of being Christ as we become just like Christ in nature and ability.”
Let me be clear: sonship to God comes as a result of true salvation. When we commit our lives to Christ, the Holy Spirit comes – and it is by His Spirit that we are adopted children of God:
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, bu you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs – heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Romans 8:14-17)
Sonship does not come from the relationship with any apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, or evangelist. Sonship comes from right relationship with the Lord. Period.
However – most of us are taught from an early age that we are nothing but maggots in the eyes of God (remember that old hymn with the bit about, “For such a worm as I?”. Worthless. Unworthy of salvation. Unworthy of love. An epic #fail.
In human terms, we really are. We can’t measure up to God’s standards. Apart from Christ, we are indeed hopeless. But God so loved the world… He ascribed to us – to sinners – even to people who hate Him, as I once did – so much value that He sent His only Son to take the punishment we so richly deserve. Are we really maggots, then? Are we really worthless? Or are we worth so much to Him that He would give everything to save us? (Daiyenu!) He did not only save us – He sends His Spirit to dwell in us. He adopts us as children.
Get this (let me know if you need Scripture but it’s all pretty basic) – get it deep down in your spirit and bring it up into your minute-by-minute consciousness:
- Jesus is God’s Son.
- If you are saved, you are God’s son (or daughter; for the sake of brevity I’m going to stick with son)
- Why is this so? Because you are wanted – desired – passionately loved.
- Jesus is the heir to the Kingdom.
- If you are God’s son, you are also the heir to the Kingdom.
- You are destined to rule and reign with Christ.
- You *will* live forever. You *are* immortal. You will either live alive with the Lord, or you will live dead in hell – but you will continue on for eternity.
- God’s intention is for us to grow more and more Christlike.
- You are in training right now and considerable authority has already been given to you.
- Jesus is coming – whether He comes and zaps the church off into the atmosphere with Him, or whether the church goes through the tribulation and then He comes – one way or another, He is coming. And He is coming soon. That Day is closer than any of us realize. The Church who are (physically) alive at the time of His return will never experience (physical) death. That could be you and me. And that, my friends, is pretty cool in my book
Anything less cheapens grace and lessens God in the eyes of man, folks… be very, very careful.
So why are apostles and prophets playing a part in this? Why are maturity and “levels” playing a part?
If, when you come to Christ, you believe you are a worthless sack of xxxx coal, you cannot walk in the fullness God intends for you to walk in. You are incapable of receiving the enormity of love He wants to pour out on you. You must grow up in Christ. Every day, God’s desire is for each of us to grow more like His Son. Anyone who denies that we are supposed to be growing in Christ and that doing so is a process of maturing is… well… biblically illiterate.
In one sense, yes – when you say “yes” to Him, you are complete in Him. But you have by no means arrived. If you said “yes” in 1992 and are still at the same spiritual level ten and twenty years later as you were the day you got saved, something is horrifically wrong.
I hate to say it… most of the church needs deliverance. Some in a classic sense (they’re demonically oppressed), and some in the sense that they’re hanging on to these lies. Apostles and prophets (and really all of the five-fold ministers), by their very job description, are enabled by God to see, expose, and counter spirits and lies with Spirit and truth. I’ve been privileged to be ministered to in this way, and very privileged to minister to others. Lies flee when confronted with Truth. Freedom is a beautiful thing.
What is the POINT of five-fold ministry to begin with? Why did God give us apostles and prophets, teachers and evangelists and pastors? Unity, knowledge of Christ, perfection, measuring up to Christ, maturity… read it for yourself. The heresy hunters hate it, but it’s all right there in plain langugae in Ephesians 4 (if you’ve left that section in your Bible, that is).
(Quoting again from LUR) Quite a difference from the saints inheriting the kingdom when Christ comes and being servants (co-heirs) in it, adopted as sons (Rev.20:6). This is not a kingdom operated by humility but of power and force. This is why the take it by force teaching , and the pulling down of strongholds. Never mind that neither Jesus or an apostle never taught this to others, because this is what God is doing now. Its new, its fresh!
Neither Jesus nor an apostle taught power and force and pulling down of strongholds? What Bible is LUR reading? Humility is not debasement or worm-i-fication. A humble man can – and will – certainly “take hold” with power and force. Humility is required for the pulling down of strongholds and spiritual warfare (remember the lesson of the sons of Sceva). There is a huge difference between humble application of power and authority and arrogance. We must become a people of great humility and great power… not because of who we are, but because of who God is.
Remember Jesus, guys? Mr. Humble He is – Mr. Milquetoast He’s not. He tore up the money changers, showed up the authorities, tripped up the Pharisees, gave boot to the devil, and handed over the keys to the Kingdom of God (to who? but that’s another post). He ate with sinners, washed feet and had His feet washed, forgave the whores and thieves, healed the sick, cleansed untouchables, raised people from the dead, did much with little, walked on water, cast out demons, bucked authority… and THEN He had the audacity to come back to life and establish and empower His church after the authorities thought He was taken care of. Even after He went off to Heaven, He still shows up on the scene (see Acts 9 for example)… If we’re called to Christlikeness, we should strive for that level of humility, for the same power that raised Christ from the dead is at work within us.
So in summary – most of what the heresy hunters holler about is thoroughly biblical. In fact, much of what they holler about is stuff that should be so basic to the fabric of Church that it’s unquestioned. Some of what makes them wild is thoroughly un-biblical. Yet those “unbiblical doctrines” are mostly things that seem to exist in their imaginations or in tiny pockets of people and not in the realm of the reality of the Church. And even those bits that may be judged unbiblical by some tend to be seen as thoroughly biblical by others (God is the judge)… in the same manner that reformed people see arminians as unbiblical (and vice-versa), tongues-talkers see cessationalists as unbiblical (and vice-versa), liturgists see relationalists as unbiblical (and vice-versa)…
So. No apologies for an exceedingly long post. If you made it all the way to the end, congratulations If you’d like Scripture for any of it, let me know – I chose not to post much Scripture because, again, this stuff is so very basic.
So regarding who called the Doctrine of the Trinity..”evil:, who hel that the Word, and astrology, and the Pyramids held equality in the revelation of who God is…would be someone you would “follow”.Cause’ heretics like Bentley, Joyner, Bob Jones and Paul Cain all drink from that same stream.
Answer me this Kathi, what have I EVER articulated that could be reagrding as a half truth a lie, or taking things out of context regarding Lakeland?
I argued that those who prophesied over him, such as Stacey “what;s her name”, concluded that Bentley was God’s Man of the Hour”. How could that be? Why wouldn’t the spirit,a dn lead her prophetically to confront his hidden and not so hidden sim, that numerous leaders knew he was engaging in not expose that?
What about Wendy Alec’s blasphemy that Jesus would appear…physically appear….of course unless I missed something that never occured.
What about Bentleys’ decleration about God giving a prophetci word about giving to the work…only to have Bentley confess that he LIED.
Why would you support a man, that has not repented, and biblically has entered a marriage that causes him to still live in adultery?
What about the spurious,a nd false claims of healings that were allegedly “performed” throught Tod…still haven’t seen him answer the charges that Nightline tossed at him…and he of course never will.
What about the claims of resurrections? Another lie…yet, Joyner and Bentley for months articulated these lies would be addressed. They of course won’t, nor will they have to…because there will always according to promises in the WORD, that you and others will follow what your itching ears want to hear.
Calvinism….it’s a beautiful thing, just like TULIPS are…..
How long did it take you to write all of this?
Wow. Good thing I’m a speed-reader.
Before I respond, let me state that I am pentecostal and was a charismatic since the early 70′s. I’ve “sat under” (as they like to say) some of the best teachers that the apostolic/prophetic (“A/P”) has to offer. I’ve been to Brownsville (loved it), my wife went to Toronto (not so good). I do not consider myself a “heresy hunter” (you may) but have a heart for the many people (my family included) that have been abused by the apostolic and “new revelation.”
I believe in the gifts, I believe in the five-fold, although I would argue that apostle and prophets are gifts to the body, and not governmental (A/G position).
I have prophesied and I pray for healing. I speak in tounges more than you all.
Enough context.
All error has truth mixed in. I would agree that the “come let us reason site” paints things with broad strokes. Fact is, it is hard to define the MSoG, because those who teach it often even contradict themselves. Jewel Grewe’s book on Joel’s Army (an A/G’er) is perhpas the best reference on MSoG available.
http://www.discernment-ministries.org/JoelsArmyBookletCustom.pdf
Yes, doctrine is important. The Bible tells us this. And those who do not think so often find themselves blown this way and that.
You state you are post-trib. No problem with that. Some of my best freinds are post-trib. For reference, the faction of the A/P that espouses MSoG is post-millenial. This would include Bentley, Joyner, Wagner, among others. Post-trib does not work well with MSoG.
Indeed in this viewpoint the church does attain perfection before the resurrection and morphs into a Christ. Bentley calls this stage or level “4″. To them, Jesus Christ is just one of the Christs, which makes them remarkably similar to the Mormons.
You’ve hit on a lot of areas that are not specifically MSoG, although they often are coupled with MSoG. My objections to MSoG are not necessarily these periphial abberancies, but focus in on the heretical polythesism involved with the MSoG doctrine.
-Bill
>>heretical polythesism <<
The Lord reminded me earlier that I never responded to this statement. First, if I was picky, I'd ask you if there was non-heretical polytheism
But I'm not picky. So I'll leave that alone.
Here's what He prompted me to say… As a former polytheist* (with great emphasis on the poly part) and a person who once believed in immanent deity* and monolatry*, I kind of think I'd recognize it in Christendom if I saw it… don't you?
(* I'd be happy to define any of those terms if you don't understand them in a pagan context; most Christians who are not ex-occult have difficult grasping what I mean when I use words like that. It's so so far outside the realm of experience.)
JUDGMENT IS COMING to THE PULPITS of AMERICA-Cindy deVille. (June 8, 2008). Preface: This is a very intense word and I will not make any excuses for the Spirit of God or attempt to manage Him. I will tell you though that this word came from the depths of God’s heart. I felt the same zeal and love that I believe drove Jesus to cleanse the temple. His presence was very heavy upon me as I wrote this… Judgment Is Coming to the Pulpits of America “The zeal for My house has consumed Me says the Spirit of God! The love for My people has overtaken Me!Therefore I will begin, I will begin, I will begin says the Spirit of God. I will begin now to cleanse My house, I will call out and I will bringjudgment, I will enter in and begin in the pulpits of America! The fear of Me shall hit the five-fold ministry, it will cause many to shudder as I utter My judgments. The five-fold ministry shall see My judgments. Those who presume to speak for Me with hidden sin, they will see judgment come to them, swiftly and suddenly! Those who think they can live in sin, be My mouthpiece and stand in My Holy place with the mask of deception on their face, they shall see My swift judgments! It shall be like an earthquake, and everything shall shake!Everything shall shake. For I will have My way! This is a day when I will not tolerate their sin anymore! NO MORE, NO MORE says the Spirit of the Lord! For I am coming to My temple and with a great roar! I will bring fear back to My house again and I will confront and remove the sin that many in the pulpit are living in! And some shall be examples as Ananais and Saphira. All that can be shaken will be shaken. For I will have a Holy people, a Holy nation. I will have a Glorious Church and I will remove everything and everyone standing in My way. For this is a new day! You say mercy, mercy, grace, grace and you think that will erase the hidden sin you continue to live and revel in!I will have it no more! Your words are nothing to Me, it is your actions that I see! You have trampled on My grace and made a mockery of My mercy and you have taught My people the same and now My name is shamed! Now My people think that I am OK with sin, You have opened the door and let it into My sanctuary, into My Holy place, You have made My house one of disgrace. You have defiled My house and defiled My people! The sin is destroying My people, destroying My Church and destroying your nation! I am done with you, and I will have it no more! No more mercy and no more grace, for you come near to Me with your words but your heart is far, far from Me. Do you not know that I see everything? You cannot fool or deceive Me as you do My people, For I AM the God of all truth and I will deal with you! For I AM a Holy God and My sanctuary shall be holy, and I WILL HAVE A HOLY PEOPLE that they might bear My Glory! They shall be holy unto Me, therefore I must remove the unclean things!I will raise up and I will bring down! I will remove apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, evangelist from the pulpit, those in the five-fold ministry who are defiling My house and defiling My people. I will have it NO MORE, NO MORE, says the Spirit of the Lord. My judgment is coming to the pulpits of America. I will judge, I will cleanse, I will purify! I have seen in secret and I will reward you openly! I will expose your sin. You have fooled My people but you have not fooled Me says the Spirit of God, for I see all things! I see what you have done behind closed doors and I say to you, I WILL HAVE IT NO MORE! For judgment has opened the door and is coming in. These are not mere words that I speak to you, but watch Me, says the Spirit of God, I will perform My word, and you will know the fear of Me again. For I am the Lord of Glory and this is not as before, this is not as before, this is not as before!!! I am coming to deal with the sin in the pulpits of America, I am coming in to deal with you! I will have it no more, no more says the Spirit of the Lord! For I am warning you says the Spirit of God, do not step up to the pulpit with hidden sin in your life, for you may not live to see another day for I will have My Church, My way, says the Spirit of Grace. This is not a game, this is not a game! All the earth shall know My name! I am not playing games!”
Ron – one of these days you’re going to have to learn where your enter key is
Who is this person you’re quoting from (and do you have permission)… and why should I receive her word as prophecy? (and BTW, just skimming over it, I’m not thinking you’re gonna convince us any time soon (me and God, that is) that this is a word from Him. And BTW, I’ve heard similar words, and I’ve given a similar word, that I know *is* from God… so it’s not the content that’s the trouble. There’s a spirit of manipulation on that so strong that the Holy Spirit within me is not happy – not at all.)
Re “a slightly different view on the nature of the Godhead than most”. . . .
Confusion concerning the person and nature of Christ inevitably goes straight to the heart of the Gospel. Thus, it should come as no surprise that erroneous doctrines such as baptismal regeneration and works salvation are prevalent among those who reject the historic Christian formulation of the Trinity. Many of them, like my Mormon friends, lead upstanding, moral lives and are a blessing to those who know them. However, their doctrinal beliefs place them far outside the bounds of Christian fellowship with those who embrace the merest core of Evangelical Christianity as it has been understood for many, many centuries.
If stating that fact is considered “heresy hunting” by some, then they have clearly cut themselves loose from any semblance of the historic Christian faith. Those who doubt my claim but believe themselves to approach their faith Biblically rather than idiosyncratically are referred to the NT books of Galatians, 1 John, and Jude, among others. Heresy is as old as the Church and the Spirit writing through the Apostles tells us how we are to deal with heresy. We are to denounce it and to refuse fellowship with those who cling to it. Heresy _is sin_ and _not_ by any means a victimless sin. On the contrary, heresy unaddressed can lead to the ruin of many.
Coming finally to the central point at hand, the various flavors of MSoG and WoF radically distort the unique nature of Christ by reducing Him to one among many. These doctrines are nothing more than warmed-over Mormonism of the “Ye are Gods” variety. I am grief-stricken at the enormous inroads this heresy and related heresies have lately made within the contemporary church–and here I write deliberately “church” rather than “Church,” for we know that the forces of Hell will not prevail against the Church that Christ Himself is building.
May those whom Christ has shown the truth of His Gospel remain faithful in contending for the faith once for all delivered and not be distracted by error or irrelevancy. Christ and the Gospel of His saving grace are everything. All else is nothing. It truly is as simple as that.
P.S. Regarding the alleged lack of substantiation for claims that many within “the River” teach the “little Gods” doctrine, please consider the following excerpts from the books of Bill Johnson:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
But even Jesus Himself had to grow “. . . in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52). This verse amazes me. I can understand the fact that He needed to grow in favor with man, but why did He have to grow in favor with God? He was perfect in every way. The answer lies in the fact that Jesus did everything He did as a man, laying His divinity aside, in order to be a model for us” [Bill Johnson, Strengthen Yourself in the Lord, p. 26].
“Through the shedding of [Jesus'] blood, it would be possible for everyone who believed on His name to do as He did and become as He was” [Bill Johnson, When Heaven Invades Earth, p. 138].
“[Jesus] said of Himself in John 5:19, ‘the Son can do nothing of Himself.’ He had set aside His divinity” [Bill Johnson, The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind, p. 50].
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I think it should be obvious that by “divinity,” Bill Johnson did not mean a white confection containing nuts. And, according to orthodox Christianity, believers will one day become _like_ their Savior in the sense of bearing resemblance to Him by means of the so-called communicable attributes of God. But they will never become _as He is_: God by nature from eternity past.
And, before someone protests, yes: it is possible to differently construe Johnson’s meaning. We know only what he wrote, but that should be enough. Please consider that published books are the product not only of authors but of editors and reviewers. That Johnson’s language was not clarified during the editorial process strongly suggests that what he wrote is _exactly_ what he meant. And what he wrote is heresy of the most ancient sort.
WB – perhaps you can explain how that’s heresy? (I can explain how it’s not, I promise, in five paragraphs or less (Bill will thank us both)… but it would be amusing to see you do so (and it would probably prove a point I’ve made numerous times on this blog)… have fun
If you can answer, that is, without violating your stated religions beliefs. Because I’m clinging to the Jesus I know and read about in my Bible – not this stranger you’re preaching
BTW, where are you all discussing my blog at?
@Dave – not long
@Bill – I’ve never heard Bentley or Joyner teach anything of the sort regarding post-millenialism. I suspect you’re taking comments out of context, but perhaps you can provide me with some source material?
(I can’t really comment on Wagner – know who he is and have read some of his stuff, but I’m much more familiar with Joyner & Bentley and have access to much more of their material. And I’ve met them both so I have a readier frame of reference)
And as an after-after-thought, Morningstar Ministries has a posted statement of faith –
http://www.morningstarministries.org/Groups/1000012239/MorningStar_Ministries/About/Statement_of_Faith/Statement_of_Faith.aspx
“We believe in the literal, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ to take authority and rule on earth. ”
“Because all have sinned and are therefore under the sentence of death, all must trust in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus for the remission of sins. There is no other way to reconcile with God or escape from eternal judgment, except through the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus.
Those who trust in Jesus Christ have access to the Throne of Grace by His sacrifice and by His sacrifice alone. Good works are acceptable to God only as a love offering given to Him because of His worthiness, and have no bearing on our acceptance, standing or approval, all of which were accomplished by the cross. Good works offered for the purpose of acceptance, standing or approval are therefore an affront to the cross by which all of these things were gained for us by Jesus. Good works are not offered for His approval, but for His joy and glory, and must be offered through the Son (I Peter 2:5) in obedience to Him. Therefore, the goal of our service is obedience and not sacrifice. ”
“Jesus Christ, Who pre-existed with God in the form of God, emptied Himself to become fully a man that He might be the propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Through His propitiatory sacrifice made on the cross, all who believe in Him and His sacrifice have their sins remitted and are restored to the fellowship with God lost by man’s transgression.
Jesus was born of a virgin, by the seed of the Holy Spirit. His virgin birth is a testimony that only the Spirit can beget that which is Spirit. Those of the new creation are not solely of human origin, but are born from above by the Holy Spirit. The resurrection of Jesus’ physical body after His crucifixion was literal, as will be the resurrection of both the just and the unjust on the Day of Judgment.
“There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (I Timothy 2:5). All who seek restoration and fellowship with God must go through Jesus and cannot approach God through any person, spirit or doctrine. It is also a supreme presumption for any person or institution to seek to be mediator for others in place of Christ Jesus Himself.
The apostolic commission was for His followers to labor until Christ was formed in His church, to present every person complete in Christ, and to manifest the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place. When Jesus is lifted up, He will draw all people to Himself. We consider it the primary purpose of the church to esteem and exalt Jesus in every way. It is the focus and devotion of MorningStar Ministries to know and preach Him, and not ourselves. We pray for the grace to continually respond to His call to return to our first Love, that we might passionately devote ourselves to pleasing Him in all things while preparing for His return. ”
Sure doesn’t sound like what y’all are talking about
Kathi, as I wrote, the Jesus made known in the Bible is an _eternal being_ who is by nature “very God of very God” as ancient creeds and canons put it. We resemble Him in only very limited ways, bearing His image and capable of receiving His communicable attributes. But, by nature, we are unlike Him. Whereas He has two natures–one human, one divine–we have, and always will have, but one nature. Those in Christ will someday receive glorified bodies but they will never become divine. Neither did He, in His incarnation, become anything less than divine. He is fully God and fully human. And He has existed “from the beginning.” All this flatly contradicts the erroneous teaching of Bill Johnson.
To be explicit, I find absolutely nothing casual or amusing in the prospect of you or anyone else denying this historic Christian teaching. I hope that we are somehow merely quibbling over words rather than actually disagreeing in even a minor way on such a foundational doctrine.
Ahh, WB, I knew I could count on you
I don’t find this casual at all (even though I tend to type at you in my pajamas and that’s pretty caz)… but I *do* find it amusing. I am very secure in my faith and I have a living, powerful, wonderful love relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. If you’re here because you think you can sway me – you’re wasting your time.
I really don’t hold a lot to ancient creeds and canons, nor do I care overmuch about historical faith. Historical faith does not equal foundational doctrine. The Bible does. If you’d like to live on historical faith, perhaps you’ll be wanting to come and execute me for my heresy?
What I do care about is what the Bible REALLY says. To the extent that historical faith walks in agreement with the Word, I’m all for it. To the extent that my forebears in the faith lived faith, I’m overwhelmingly appreciative. To the extent that history lines up with HIS-story… I love it and I think we can glean much. But let’s face it, many of the folks that modern church idolizes (Like Calvin and Luther) are folks that make Bill Johnson and Todd Bentley look rather tame.
Now, as to your complaints, the way I see it you have two major areas of concern (that you should perhaps approach Bill Johnson with, for our continued entertainment and strict adherence with what Jesus has to say on the matter… you know, instead of trashing him on the blog of a rather inconsequential woman from North Carolina…. nah, that’s not gonna happen)
#1 – The nature of Christ
#2 – The nature of man
Nowhere in BJ’s teachings that I’ve read/listened to so far do I find that Jesus was ever anything less than fully God or anything less than eternal. (and to clarify, as far as I know, I’ve read everything that Johnson has written in book form in the last 10-15 years, plus read books by his protege Kris Vallotton and sat under ministry by numerous people influenced or trained by him)
What I do find is the oh-so-very-biblical statement that Jesus came in the form of a man on purpose. I find it utterly fascinating that while He was in the form of a man, He was subject to manhood. At the same time He was also fully God, He pooped his pants and Mary had to clean him up. (It’s amazing to me that He did not, as part of the Grand Plan, spare Himself this indignity). At the same time He was fully God, He got hungry, thirsty, and tired. He became angry and sad. At the same time He was fully God, He was tempted to sin (He did not sin – but He was tempted several times).
He knew full well what He was capable of… and He chose to instead live as a man. He knew fully well what He was capable of… and yet He only did what the Father told Him to do. If He was (and He is) God, why did He do nothing of His own volition?
He had to. He had to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. All the while the sacrifice HAD to be God Himself… the sacrifice also had to be man… fully man. (and that, sir, is a foundational doctrine.)
Neither does Johnson teach that we will one day become divine, or are divine now, in the same sense that God is deity.
We are, however, adopted children in His Kingdom. The Lord Himself is alive within us. We are co-heirs with this Man we have been discussing. We will one day rule and reign with this Man… with God. We have considerable authority now (to forgive, to heal, to cleanse, to deliver, to raise)… all that pales in comparison to then. It’s a glorious thing, it’s a Mystery… and it’s the identity that God Himself has chosen for us to walk and to live and to love in.
We are not worms. We are not paupers. We are not orphans. We are not worthless. We are not even sinners any longer. Apart from Him – yes, we are. In Him, however, we are transformed from darkness to light (Is anything light other than Him? Therein lies an important question)… from hopeless to hope… from lawlessness to righteousness…from blamed to blameless in God’s sight. We’re being transformed and conformed into the very image of the Son.
Isn’t it glorious? I think I need to leave this and go praise the Lord for a while.
One of the distinguishing characteristics of MSoG is that idea that somehow the church will morph into Christ, or into a Christ-type. This relieves Christ from having to literally return, and in many strains of MSoG, He doesn’t. You will hear phrases such as corporate anointing or corporate atmosphere referring to the transformed body of the elite. Yes, we are the body of Christ, but not The Body of Christ. You will also see Christ’s divinity downplayed – as if He could only do what He did because some anointing cloud of glory fell down upon Him. As with all abberent teaching, MSoG teaching includes much truth, which makes the error that much harder to spot.
To be generous, you could say that they just have the timing of Romans 8 off. But the end result of MSoG is to ascribe divinity to ourselves, which will never happen. Of course there are many other problems; let’s see how many you can spot without coaching.
Kingdom Theology (combined) with the Manifest Sons of God doctrine (believes in) the ongoing incarnation of God and (that) believers are “little gods” exercising autonomous sovereignty within their spheres of dominion.
-Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
Kathi- by your testimony you have already heard this. Morningstar provided me with the DVD which I have transcribed word for word. Bentley is speaking at Rick Joyner’s church near Charlotte, North Carolina on August 8, 2008. The date 08.08.08 was celebrated by some as having some sort of prophetic meaning, even thought it has no meaning in God’s calendar.
Morningstar was calling it a “historic night of new beginnings,” which in a way was sadly funny because Bentley was abandoning his wife at that time.
That Morningstar also embraces this theology is evidenced by the fact that the DVD continues to be promoted on the Morningstar website. The cover of the DVD which I have calls it a “DVD teaching set.”
Todd Bentley, August 8, 2008, at Morningstar
“You know I saw a progression, (in) this anointing. In the first two weeks that God broke out in Florida, I had an open vision. Four stages of this revival. In fact there were twelve steps. Twelve stairs on a staircase. Four floors; every floor was one stage of the progression of revival.”
Bentley goes on to tell us that each step is a progression (increase) of God’s Glory . Regarding the four floors or stages. The first stage is healing. He says this where most of the church lives. “Let’s worship until the presence of God comes and we get this.”
The second floor is called “notable, remarkable miracles.” He calls this the “creative miracle realm.” “This was the legs, the arms and the eyeballs..”
The third floor was raising the dead. Ironically, Bentley stated (his affair was known by Joyner at this time) “And there were some other things on the (third) floor. The Spirit of Holiness, Romans 1:4. There was character…”
Back to Bentley:
“And I was surprised that there was a fourth stage coming that we’ve still not hit. We’ve only begin to hit the third floor. Some of us aren’t even in the notable-remarkable realm yet. We’re just satisfied, we think the healing realm is revival. We’re splashing around in the pool of Bethesda and God’s trying to move us to the (Peter’s) shadow. Then we get to the shadow, we finally start seeing the dead being raised, resurrection. And the fourth floor, I’ll tell you what it is.
I got up to the fourth floor, the door opened, it was Romans 8, the Manifestation of the Sons of God, power, dominion, and it was called resurrection life. And I said, wait a minute God, what’s the difference between raising the dead and resurrection life? He said, “Raising the dead is something that you do, but there’s a place where there’ll be such a maturity and glory in my church, that will be resurrection life, power, dominion and authority over every sin, sickness, disease, death, a realm of conquering. Listen, when Jesus came up out of the tomb, when Jesus was risen from the dead, when he came up, just because of the anointing on him, the glory on him, other dead people were raised by accident.
He said Todd, you can pray for one person today to be raised from the dead but there’s coming a realm of corporate anointing that when it drops on a city, or drops on a life, or drops on a ministry, and the power become so great, it affects the area hospitals, it affects – people get raised from the dead, wherever they’re watching. Because of the anointing in the atmosphere. There’s been people raised from the dead for 2000 years.
You can be an apostle, have great faith and pray, and somebody gets raised from the dead, but when you walk in the realm of resurrection life and glory Manifestation of the Sons of God, and there’s such a corporate atmosphere, and such an anointing around you. You step into a city and all that’s death and decay, and all that’s terminal and cancer get affected, and every devil begins to shake.
And that’s when I said “God, I’m not focused on raising the dead anymore, I want resurrection life.” Do you know, raising the dead isn’t something that happens, raising the dead is a person. Resurrection isn’t something that happens, resurrection is a person. Jesus said, “I am the resurrection, I am the life.” Raising the dead is Jesus. When the dead are raised it’s Jesus.
The person. Resurrection is the person. “I am the resurrection, I am the life.” Resurrection is Jesus, not something that happens.
God’s going to move the church into such a realm, yes Peter’s shadow, yes unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, aprons, handkerchiefs, yes healing, yes creative miracles but we’re moving into a realm of, yes a revival of raising the dead. But we’re moving into a realm of Romans 8: resurrection life, power, dominion over every sin, sickness, disease, death, and it’s an atmosphere. Because everything is the person of Jesus. And we are pressing in for that Romans 1:4 anointing. (divinity -ed.)
Do you know how Jesus was raised from the dead? By the spirit of holiness and declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection of the dead. And I just believe there’s an impartation to call forth “Christ in you the hope of glory” “the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead.”
And I want to take one moment church and I want to press in, I want you to press in with me, to go from one floor, to two floors to three floors, to four, and let’s progress and let’s say God beyond raising the dead, beyond notable-remarkable miracles, beyond healing, let there be a release in the church of the realm of glory and power and dominion and authority that affects everything that’s death and decay around us and it’s true victory, it’s true resurrection life, true resurrection power, and true resurrection glory. And I want you to press into that for a moment ’cause there’s coming a day, where when that resurrection power comes, its going to be so great, that hundreds of those that are terminally ill will be healed, area hospitals will be emptied, dead will be raised five block down the street.
People will be made alive. Born again. Thirty-mile radius of glory- shaking city. That’s the cloud that’s coming down. That’s the overshadowing.
So Lord, I pray tonight, for release of that glory realm, the glory realm that shakes, signs in the heaven above, wonders in the earth beneath. The glory realm that abides. The thirty-mile radius glory. Shaking glory. resurrection life. Resurrection power. Resurrection glory. I want you to press in to it right now and I’m going to pray.”
Note to the gullible: The same spirit that raised Christ from the dead NOW dwells in us. Not when we reach “the fourth stage” whatever that is.
That’s my point- Benley’s 4 stages are completely absent from the scriptures. Betley states is was given to him in an “open vision,” he admits he did not get it from the Word. That’s because its not there.
What is the Romans 1:4 anointing he talks about?
Romans 1:4 (New International Version)
4and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God[b] by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Divinity.
I must respectully disagree with your point. But I am sure we are both proud to live in a country of freedom where we can agree to disagree.
I adore how you prove my points for me
but this here leads me to conclude that this is probably a fruitless discussion:
Quite untrue, and the propagation of lies doesn’t earn you brownie points around here.
I have far, far more problems with the doctrine of several of the churches within a mile of my house, than I have with Bentley, Joyner, et al.
Quite a few local churches teach that if you murmured some words after the children’s pastor when you were in second grade, you can sin with impunity.
I’m not a bit concerned that Bentley’s headed to hell or is leading people astray, nor am I concerned about people who go to his meetings or espouse and teach the doctrines that he teaches.
In fact, every single person I know who like Morningstar/Fresh Fire/Bill Johnson/etc (and that’s quite a few folks from my church as well as around the world) are people who are loving and adoring Jesus and following Him headlong, walking in signs and wonders and miracles… and even moreso, holy passion and fire.
Fruitless discussion? Yes, damning the other person to hell is sort of a dialouge stopper.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Bless you.
>because Bentley was abandoning his wife at that time.
“I did not hear that Todd was going through a personal crisis until the day before our meeting with him here. When I saw him Wednesday night, he immediately wanted to share with me about his personal problems—especially about his recent separation from his wife.”
-Rick Joyner, speaking about the 8-8-08 meeting, from his website.
Sigh.
I’m not a bit concerned that Bentley’s headed to hell or is leading people astray, nor am I concerned about people who go to his meetings or espouse and teach the doctrines that he teaches…
This comment by you alone, is precisely why you are essentially marked, and why I post that other than confronting your lies and the liars you appalud, that beleivers should have nothing to do with you Kathi.
Ron – confronting truth tends to give one a headache. It is hard to kick against the goads. you will accomplish nothing here but exposing yourself for what you are, hon.
I am marked – and proudly so.
Bill – if you are choosing to apply Revelation 21:8 to yourself by your actions, perhaps you should repent.
Shonnah Bentley packed up the kids and returned to Canada. The only answers to why are purely speculative and rooted in the accusation of a brother apart from facts in evidence.
I would not call her act of leaving “him abandoning her” – quite the other way ’round. She left. Regardless of her reasons for doing so, she is the one who packed her bag. That would be a “separation from his wife” as Joyner stated, tho apparently not one of his own choosing.
I don’t want to speak condemnation over Shonnah. Perhaps she had great reasons. Perhaps biblical reasons. Perhaps not. We don’t know, because the facts are not in evidence. Just speculations. Todd has publicly repented for his part in things. I don’t know if she has or not, but I’d find it difficult to believe she hadn’t. To what extent was it him? To what extent was it her? God knows. And yet John Q. Hunter is not content to leave it with God (spirit of manipulation… seriously)
No, you should watch what you call people, especially a brother in the Lord. I thought you could do better.
Todd Bentley was the one who filed the separation papers, not Shonna, as the first step in a Canadian divorce.
“I don’t want to speak condemnation over Shonnah. ”
But you will speak it over me? You are sick.
Bye.
ps. doctrine is important. the bible says so. I pray that one say you will pull your head out of the sand and start comparing what many in the MSoG movement are saying against the word. May God be with you.
-Bill
Hmmm. So you come to my house and call me a heretic. That is, in your book, okay. I call you a liar (because you said a lie), and I suddenly become “sick”.
Interesting how that works.
Yes, doctrine IS important. That’s why I adhere to it. Straight from the Word of God, and without repentance.
Kathi, you asked for citations. I’ve given them. But, you seem to me to be ignoring what they say.
Johnson has plainly written, in multiple books, that Jesus left behind His divinity. What does the word “divinity” mean to you? In every source I’ve consulted, its meaning, in contexts such as this, is identical with that of the word “deity.” Johnson is claiming not merely that Jesus became fully human but that, in doing so, He ceased to be God. That view is not consistent with Scripture or Christian creed.
While we seem to agree that historic creeds are derivative of the Bible and carry no divine authority in and of themselves, we seem to disagree on their relevance. My claim is that they are generally helpful tools that we can use to improve our understanding of the Word by seeing therein what previous generations of Christians have seen. There is no guarantee they were not in error. But, any teaching that departs from historic creeds is strongly suspect on its face, since God will not abandon His Church. Therefore, it is in our interest to be familiar with them and to do as the Bereans did whenever a teaching seems not to fit within their boundaries.
I think I’ll stick with what Philippians 2:5 and following has to say, WB. Johnson in no way contradicts that passage in ANYTHING I’ve ever seen/heard him say.
As for your citations, there is absolutely no proof offered that you are quoting perfectly, nor any proof that you are quoting in context. Perhaps you’ll loan me your Bill Johnson books with appropriate passages highlighted (I promise to take good care of them and return them promptly) so that I can see for myself.
A quick aside before I run off for the evening… that’s not what the Bereans did
Kathi, do you understand Philippians 2 to mean that Jesus, in His incarnation, left behind His deity? I hope that I misunderstand you and apologize in advance against the possibility that I have done so.
WB, the Lord sort of got after me last night, that these conversations we’re having really don’t glorify Him – they really amount to endless mental masturbation and while it’s fun for a while, He’s got better uses for my time (can’t speak for yours as He didn’t address that with me).
I’m certainly not going to convert to your way of thinking about Him any time soon. You might as well try to convince me that my husband is a blonde dancing girl in a tutu, as to convince me that my Lord is as you present Him.
So I will, in short, answer your question – you misunderstand to a point.
But I have one question for you, WB – why do you presume to correct me? Are you in authority over me? Are you my pastor? Are you an apostle or prophet? Just curious
Kathi, as I have not yet explored your personal opinion on this point of doctrine, I can’t say that I’m attempting to correct you. I have merely been participating in what I thought was an open discussion you’d offered concerning various points of MSoG doctrine, with special reference to the views of Bill Johnson, one of the most prominent figures within “the River.” I have seen firsthand the damage MSoG doctrine does to individual Christians and entire churches in distracting them from the Gospel and therefore am concerned to demonstrate where and how it falls short of truly Biblical teaching.
As to the specific point you raised, given opportunity I would be delighted to correct Bill Johnson, you, or anyone who holds to wrong doctrine. And, I would hope that Bill Johnson, you, and others would do me the same favor. We’re all commanded to contend for the faith. And, one of the greatest blessing one can bring to a brother or sister is to help the brother or sister understand the Lord more fully and accurately.
Therefore, I don’t believe that any special standing is necessary in seeking to restore a brother or sister, whether in a matter of general sin or the special sin of wrong doctrine. But, if my credentials are an issue, I am a seminary trained occasional church elder in full-time ministry for over 20 years, with the spiritual gifts of teaching and discernment and, since you asked, yes, maybe at least a touch of prophecy.
To bring closure to the discussion of Philippians 2, the proper interpretation of the “Kenosis” is that, in His incarnation, Jesus temporarily left behind His role as supreme sovereign and accepted the humiliating limitations of human flesh. He did not for one moment cease to be God. The change pertains only to His role.
Here’s the big picture behind that point of doctrine. Bill Johnson’s view that Jesus “left behind His divinity” destroys the atonement because the death of a mere man cannot atone for the grievous and persistent sins of the human race. The magnitude of those sins demanded the death of the unique God-man.
Not just that, but Bill Johnson’s view leads to any number of other problems. For instance, if God ceased to be God, how did he once again become God? If men can become Gods, we have been led into an error paralleling that of Mormon polytheism. Etc. Etc.
I hope that this brief explanation helps those who regularly read or happen across your blog better understand the Kenosis and how variant views of the Kenosis can compromise other, central Christian doctrines including the Gospel itself.
Blessings,
WB, I’m really not going to engage you. And I do mean *really*. Just a couple of brief points (if you’d like to continue to write paragraph upon paragraph for me to gloss over, that’s your time…::shrug::) But I really do think you’re reading what Johnson is saying incorrectly and the point he’s making is rather akin to yours. You are making his “leaving behind divinity” statement out to be the same thing as “ceasing to be divine”. That’s not what he’s saying at all.
To be perfectly clear, I agree with Johnson. Let me state this unequivocally. Yes, I’m a “River” person, all the way.
Interesting how we can each draw vastly different opinions about all of this. I have attended lots of “river” churches and globally know thousands and thousands of “river” people, and haven’t found a one that wasn’t gospel-centric.
I’ve also seen and experienced firsthand the effects of heresy hunting… and let me tell you. God’s had to grace several of my pastors with a good sense of humor.
You missed my point. I would receive Apostolic/Prophetic correction – from one standing in the office of (not with a “touch” of) prophet or apostle, who God has placed in position to correct the church. That is the sort of direction the church needs – and needs desperately – from people who are called and recognized in those offices. (I don’t mean to demean your prophetic gift in any way, WB – there’s just a difference between “gift of” and “office of”)
There are a handful of people who stand in those offices in my life. These are people I know in real life who have earned my respect in several ways – I’ve seen their love for Jesus, I’ve seen their love for me and other people, I’ve seen several of them at their worst, I’ve sat under their teaching and know their theology, I’ve seen them move in the power of God. Signs and wonders follow their lives.
So if you can define to me how you fit into that role…?
I was praying about this on the way home last night, WB, and the Holy Ghost and I had a good laugh about it all. If I paid attention to every person who showed up here spouting about doctrinal correctness and offering scriptural proofs, I’d be an arminicalvinistic expialadocious baptipipresbycostepiscopagan. Sorry, but I refuse to be tossed and carried by the winds of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14).
I think I’ll just take Jesus.
One afterthought – you should try this experiment sometime, WB.
Get ten people, all who love the Lord, all from the same denomination and background, together for a chat. Set some groundrules – they cannot quote from a doctrinal statement, denominational literature, or a teacher. They cannot quote Scripture directly and solely. Ask them to define the very basic core doctrines of the faith.
I guarantee you that you’ll get eleven different opinions. By your way of thinking, only one – or none – of them can be right. And yet they all adore the Lord.
I’m not a bit concerned that Bentley’s headed to hell or is leading people astray, nor am I concerned about people who go to his meetings or espouse and teach the doctrines that he teaches.
—————————-
Really Kathi?
I don’t know what Bentley teaches or doesn’t teach, you know I’m weighing in as neutral on this. But I do know what this doctrine is that’s being discussed above, and I am intimately acquainted with it.
And I am concerned about the people who go to these meetings. And I am concerned about the leaders and teachers who are possibly teaching things that are off base.
I do think this doctrine being discussed above is in error.
But you know I’m still trying to feel out where you really stand on this stuff, and on which side of that line you truly fall.
Sorting some of this stuff out in my head is definitely in the plans for this break coming up. You’ll probably get a few earfuls.
Heather at some point we can sit down and hash doctrine
Here’s the way I see doctrine in general – there are some things which are error (in varying degrees), and some things which are error. Examples of error (in my opinion)
cessationalism
teaching that if you don’t speak in tongues, you’re not really saved
pre-trib
Calvinism
extreme arminianism (teaching that the instant you even think about sinning, you lose your salvation)
modalism (Oneness doctrine)
And yet the Baptist is my brother – the UPC gal is my sister – the AoG are my brethren –
Examples of what I consider to be error:
teaching that Jesus is the brother of satan
teaching that the Holy Spirit is an “it” or a “force” rather than a He
spouting hatred in God’s name (which includes a great many of the heresy hunters)
People who believe/teach these things are not saved.
Obviously not complete lists of all possible errors…
Kathi,
Just thought I’d drop in to say that it seems rather
disingenuous for you to say “I thought I’d post on the subject and open it up to discussion” and then shut down the discussion because WB is apparently not an Apostle or Prophet that you would allow to speak into your life. Or is not accredited by what ever Apostolic cerification agency you deem appropriate.
Perhaps you would do well to say something like “I’ll open it up for discussion with those who agree with me.”
And that’s your right. But please don’t pretend you wish to discuss these things. You will bring traffic to your site that you don’t want.
If your conclusion from the start is that we will all have different ideas, but what is important is that we just love Jesus (or our picture of who we think he is), then say so, but pretending you wish to discuss things and then stopping every discussion with a side issue is very, very odd.
God loves a good discussion.
Isaiah 1:18
@Bill Fawcett: how about, “I’ll open it up for discussion with people who won’t badmouth men of God that they happen to disagree with”
Kathi,
Interesting how we can each draw vastly different opinions about all of this. I have attended lots of “river” churches and globally know thousands and thousands of “river” people, and haven’t found a one that wasn’t gospel-centric.
What is the gospel of Jesus Christ?
The gospel: Jesus (who is God) saves, heals, cleanses, delivers, empowers and it’s through Him and Him alone that we can be saved, forgiven of our sins, be filled with the Holy Ghost, enter into a love relationship with the Father, be adopted as sons, and live forever! (in no particular order)
Never been to a River church or a revival meeting that wasn’t all about the Gospel. [editing to add: I *have* been in a lot of churches with a "Christian" and even a "Pentecostal" sign on the door, where what they were doing wasn't exactly about the gospel... or about the Lord... ]
The gospel: Jesus (who is God) saves, heals, cleanses, delivers, empowers and it’s through Him and Him alone that we can be saved, forgiven of our sins, be filled with the Holy Ghost, enter into a love relationship with the Father, be adopted as sons, and live forever! (in no particular order)
Why or what do I need to be saved from?
@WordSeeker – you *deserve* to be punished for your sins. But God loved you so much that He took that punishment for you, if you accept Him doing so…
Kathi, we can agree that there are many who go about the hunting of heresy, as it’s popularly styled, in ways that bring dishonor to the Lord and chaos to His church. Some–perhaps many–among both hunters and hunted will have much for which to answer in terms of how they have conducted themselves, I fear.
But, polarized, two-dimensional thinking may tend to avoid crucial issues. One who raises a doctrinal challenge may not, on the fact alone, be reasonably deprecated as a heresy hunter. A claim of heresy hunting must to to the attitude, motivation, and integrity of the alleged hunter. Given observance of the merest conventions of polite discourse, these are difficult to discern from afar. Only the Lord knows our hearts. We ourselves do not know them apart from His revelation to us.
By the way, when you distinguish mere error from boldface error, are you aware that the UPC churches, which were heavily influenced by the theology of Branham and vice versa, tend to be modalistic, believing that the Spirit is merely a force? That was one of the errors you styled in boldface, as I’m sure you recall.
More to the point of the current exchange, I find it odd that you consider it necessary that a contemporary apostle personally adjust your doctrine. Paul several times commanded Timothy to stand for truth against error. But I don’t recall Timothy being made an apostle. In fact, Paul regularly ordained elders. But I don’t recall him ever designating as apostle or prophet (in the sense of office rather than mere gift) anyone other than himself and those of the original twelve. But still, there are those admonitions to refute error. And, consider how Stephen, a mere deacon, set out to confute the obstinate errors of his Jewish compatriots (and, what it got him, if one cares to go there). Your restriction as to roles in the Church doesn’t seem to me to square with the Biblical evidence that brothers and sisters should seek to restore one another in matters of both sin and doctrine, whether or not an apostle or prophet is available to participate.
You write, “You are making his ‘leaving behind divinity’ statement out to be the same thing as ‘ceasing to be divine’. That’s not what he’s saying at all.”
I’d be pleased to be able to determine that I have misjudged his meaning. But, as he has refused to respond to e-mail messages, I seem to lack this opportunity. Still, I reiterate my previous claim: “divinity” means “deity,” not “white fudge.” Please look it up. What do you suppose he DOES mean if not that Jesus left behind this deity? And why, over the course of three commercially published books, hasn’t someone thought to clarity his claim? And, why has he preached that it’s more important the teachers be known to have raised the dead than have correct theology/ Christology? A simple “That’s not what I meant. What I meant was . . . ” would even now resolve the issue.
In any case, it’s not logically adequate to dismiss my claim that Johnson means Jesus left behind His deity without identifying a alternative meaning and demonstrating that the alternative meaning is more plausible than my claim. Would you please have a go at doing so?
By the way, the heresy is not original, having been popular among 19th-century liberals. The error actually became so prevalent that the term “kenotic theory” is generally taken as a reference to the heresy rather than to the orthodox doctrine of the kenosis. So, on the face, it’s not exactly heresy hunting to suppose that someone may have fallen into this particular error.
Blessings,
@WB: I’ve already answered you – you’ve not listened. ::shrugs::
Biblical correction happens in contexts of community or authority. Given that I don’t know you from Adam’s housecat, we lack community; given that you are neither apostle nor prophet, nor my pastor or an elder in my church, we lack authority.
In the absence of both, we are left with what could be an interesting discussion, except that first, the Spirit has constrained me (see my previous comment regarding “mental masturbation”, and second, I do not care to be a party to the tearing apart of a man who is not here to defend himself. If you wish to correct Bill Johnson, please, go – establish yourself in community and authority at Bethel, and speak to the man. Or, lacking either avenue, pray for him.
I’ve been looking for apples, pears, peaches, ackees, or even breadfruit in the things you have to say, WB. Yet all I find are thorns and thistles.
One is not tearing down men when you quote and discuss things they say in public. In fact, we are instructed by the Lord to test things that have been preached/prophecied/taught to see if they are true.
In fact, I would not call either men mentioned in this discussion heretics; heretics are dammed to hell and I consider them to be – by their profession – Christians. Some of their doctrine, however, is heretical, as an examination of the transcript offered above, and the book quotes, reveal.
We are also to test things that people say that God has said to them. While on the surface it may seem like an irrefutable argument stopper, I seriously doubt that the Lord told you that a discussion was akin to masturbation. But don’t trust me, run that by your elders. Better yet, repeat the word Sunday for the entire congregation to judge.
@Bill Fawcett:
I tried to reply to this last night, but my cell phone is pretty limited when it comes to my blog. Need to see if I can find a plug-in that will address that.
So a couple of things we need to clear up right off –
1) I do not post or say, “God said…” unless I’m sure He did. Those are indeed His words.
2) It seems that the “m” word scares you. It doesn’t scare me, or people in my church, or God.
3) My pastors and mentors and quite a few people from my church read my blog. If I’d said something out of line, I’d have heard about it by now. If this were a corporate word for my church, I would absolutely submit it to my church, with no hesitation simply because God used a word that some might not like.
Okay , I have read most all of the posts and most just seem to be protecting their own way they have learned to believe. I just want to tread lightly because I am new so I will just tell you where my belief system originated from.
My Grandmother, who was a Baptist, (I didn’t know Baptist from Catholic)recited the bible to me often. My dad being a Jewish Atheist, religion was never discussed.
Those readings my Grandmother read to me were the basis of my relationship with Jesus. It didn’t take much. No doctrine, no laws, no levels of belief, just a pure love of God and Jesus.And the love of my grandmother for me.(just had a few tears)
It wasn’t until I was older that I started going to Church. What a disappointment.Yes there were many lovely christians, but so much confusion.I was appalled to hear christians say that Jesus wasn’t God or didn’t have the Holy Spirit until he was baptised. I will tell
you I cried like a baby. These people all were into Bill Johnson, read all his books.
The pastors wife showed me a video of Bill Johnson hoping I would see him as the prophet they see him as. I watched for less than five minutes and said I had enough. It made me sick to my stomach.
How could something so pure and simple , which leads to a secure foundation in Jesus(words from the bible that a person who loves you reads) to become so
manipulating and confusing, and sickening. All I heard were the words being spoken, in both instances.
Something is wrong in the church. Kathi, I hate to say this but your words are very thin. Say something that you know from when you were a baby. I am not sure you will know what I mean. I don’t want to say to much now since you don’t know me well.
All I know for sure is you must leave all behind, all the teachings the churches espouse, all the books that are out there, and just hang onto the the words of
Jesus, to the love of Jesus.
@Ruby… Bill Johnson does not teach that. ::shrug:: Have seen quite a few videos of Bill and everything I see/hear lines up with the Bible and my own experiences with God.
And what I "knew" from when I was a baby would scare the pants off your gentle, tender self (it's occult-related stuff) so I'm not going to speak it to you. I didn't have the blessing of a godly Grandmother, as you did… that is a true blessing in your life.
Bill, do you have a blog or a website? Just interested in reading more of what you have to say…if there’s more out there somewhere to read.
A sinner standing before an infinitely holy God, when grasped, is a terrifying prospect indeed. Lexi Jesus
For more reasons why God will let the church be purified during the future worldwide reign of the you-know-who, Google "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty." Disgusted, Joan
It's been half a year almost — Finally got, in my hands, a copy of When Heaven Invades Earth (Bill Johnson) so I can comment on it to WB.
I'll just put it this way, now that I've read it. Johnson's right (on a lot of things, but particular to the conversation, about the nature of Jesus). As I wrapped my mind around it last night, studied the Scripture, bounced it off a trusted friend and mentor, I realized that by making Him out to be more than He was, we really make Him into something less than He is.