Feb 062010
 

Woah.

So worship @ Morningstar last night was… WOAH. And the teaching on healing was excellent. I’m not going to get into testimony-time in this thread (as I decompress I’ll blog about last night and post it. Let’s just say even my socks got anointed… )

Ken and I both perceived, at different points during worship, a strong demonic presence in the room. It felt like it was brooding. Or festering. That might be a better word.

So worship ended and Todd Bentley took the stage and started to take up the evening offering. From the balcony a voice rang out – screeching about adultery and repentance. Security came and got him.

Then, in turn from all around the room other men did the same thing. I think there were five in all who spoke up. There were two more who hung out the rest of service and didn’t say anything.

It was ugly. As each man began to speak you could actually feel the demonic presence coming from them. It was like… it was on their voices. Not something I’ve experienced quite like that before.

Todd was gracious. I was impressed. I don’t believe I would have been that nice under those circumstances.

Security helped them all find the door. All but one went peacefully.

Janet went to the ladies room shortly after that and said the place was swarming with police. I’m not sure if the guys got arrested, or if the cops just gave them a stern talking to.

I’m pretty sure that one of hte guys was Bud Press. Sounded like his voice

 Posted by at 8:41 am
  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Dave48 Dave48

    "Or festering." Now that's a word.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/catfantastic catfantastic

    Rude and disruptive, I'd agree. But demonic? I mean, it's a term I see used a lot in the Evangelical world, but it bugs me when Christians use it about each other. About me, I can see. I don't agree, but I can see. But somehow I think if I'd been there with you on Friday, you wouldn't have said that about me, even though technically I'm worse. The people who disrupted the service at least think they're doing God's work; I would have been respectful, but I…don't.

    Something like 25 000 children will starve to death today, and millions more are in slavery or in sweatshops or toting machine guns as child soldiers. We could stop it, but we don't. If this is what humans do to each other, while demons orchestrate outbursts at prayer meetings, then aren't demons the more righteous entity by far?

    It just bothers me to see people who agree with each other about everything except this one tiny point turning that point into a cosmic battle between good and evil, when there's so much else wrong with the world, that more of us DO agree on, that we can fix.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      Cat, part of the thing is that these men are NOT Christians. ::shrug:: They are Pharisees of the type Jesus talked about in Matthew 23. They are wholly given over to satan and his plans. Sure, they could be saved. But I doubt they want to be.

      You actually make a good point – but it's one that supports my argument. There are millions of starving people in the world, war-torn countries, disease runs rampant… and by and large, the church is (or is behind) the effective organizations who are battling this. Samaritan's Purse, Convoy of Hope, etc. One of the (intentional) \”side effects\” of these meetings is that people get fired up about missions work… fired up enough to GO and DO SOMETHING, either at home or abroad. (Really, if you trace it back, this is how Ken and I got so involved with compassion ministry on the streets at home and in Jamaica). So disrupting or stopping these meetings with the goal of making everyone twice as much a son of hell as the heresy hunters are would bring missions to a screeching halt.

      Except that God said the gates of hell wouldn't prevail… :)

      I prophesied during Lakeland that there is a coming civil war within the church. It may have begun already. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

      On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Kathi Sharpe <kathi@iamhealed.net> wrote:
      approve

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/danielcourtney danielcourtney

        Hello,
        I am one of those that spoke out on Friday night at Morningstar. I want you to understand why we did what we did. We are not pharisees and it really grieves my heart that any time someone speaks out against sin and stands up for holiness they are called pharisees. Todd Bentley has not only committed adultery but continues in it unrepentant. Repentance is not just saying you are sorry but there must be action to back it up (Matt3:8). I have been to morningstar before for church service and have been blessed by the worship in the past. My brother(who also spoke out Friday night) was baptized in the Holy Spirit at Morningstar about 7 or 8 years ago. We know that there are many people including leaders that genuinely love Jesus. That is why it was not an easy thing to do. We did not come in a "religious" or "demonic" spirit. Our hearts were broken and have been broken before God since the whole Todd Bentley scandal. We prayed before we went to Morningstar that night and searched our hearts. We asked the Lord for a spirit of meekness like He has. With so many young people, who we know love the Lord, looking up to Rick Joyner and the leaders at Morningstar we can't let the dismissal of Todd Bentley's sin go unanswered. Going to Morningstar and publicly rebuking Todd Bentley was a last resort. It was not a thing that we did just for fun or because we have a chip on our shoulders. We did what we did because there is grievous error, concerning Todd Bentley's restoration, in the Morningstar leadership that has gone unchecked for many months.

        We were not all graciously shown the door. Some of the ushers were rather gracious considering the circumstances, but some where very forceful. Not really sure why the Sheriff's office was called but most of them were pretty gracious. We were not arrested but we were interviewed by Oprah's camera crew and another free-lance guy who was there making a documentary about Todd Bentley or the Lakeland Revival or something like that. We had no idea that the camera crews were going to be there, but considering it to be orchestrated by the Lord.

        Well there is my side. I am not trying to fight a civil war. I am not a Pharisaical heresy hunter. I am just a guy that loves Jesus and His Church and desires that She would be what She is called to be, a pure bride, the ground and pillar of truth. Yes indeed come quickly Lord Jesus!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

          Daniel, thank you for your response here.

          If you are grieved that you are being called a heresy hunter and a Pharisee of the type that Jesus talked about in Matthew 23, then you should repent and quit acting like one. If you cannot see that what you did was wrong, I recommend a basic Christianity 101 type Bible study. Your \”credentials\” as a Christian don't impress me any more than Paul's credentials as the Hebrew of Hebrews is impressive in the Kingdom. What you did was wrong – and in far, far more serious and grievous error than could be said of Todd Bentley being in the pulpit.

          Let me ask you this. Have you sat and talked with Todd Bentley – or with Rick Joyner, for that matter? Have you expressed your concern directly?

          I have talked with Todd. Which is a large part of why I've embraced this as a move of God.

          It really sounds to me like you are having difficulty understanding the grace and mercy of God. I recommend that you pray some more. Get into the Father's heart for His children and for restoration and stay there. Camp out a while in an atmosphere of love.

          Also, I don't know where you and your brother were in the room, nor do I know what happened after people were escorted from the room – but several of your bunch did NOT go quietly. In fact one of you had to be picked up and carried out of the room. When I commented (I think on facebook) that the heresy hunters are filled with hate, murder, and violence – I was talking about one of the men who was pretty irrationally violent in the process of being removed.

          On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 8:08 AM, Kathi Sharpe <kathi@iamhealed.net> wrote:
          approve

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/shamem1 shamem1

    Who gets to decide who is controlled by "the demonic"? If someone is against what you are for does that automatically make them it? What is more of Satan, adultery or a open verbal criticism of adultery in a church service?
    Does criticism = Phariseeism? If so, is God therefor anti-American and anti first amendment ? The truth shouldn't fear any voice of opposition. I'm just sayin'

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      I would say that an individual gets to decide if they're controlled by demons or not, Shamem. And these men are certainly controlled. This is evident both by their actions and by the demon floating over their heads that was QUITE visible.

      If you stood up in a theater and began preaching, you'd be arrested. If you stood on home plate during a ball game and started preaching, you'd be arrested. If you wandered into the baptist church up the road that has an unrepentant adulterer as its pastor and started preaching, you'd be arrested.

      Criticism has its place, it's time, and its way. Biblically speaking, it's done in contexts of love, authority, and relationship – the three things that heresy hunters lack.

      Todd Bentley has repented and has been forgiven of his sins by God. That means that they're as far as the east is from the west, that they're tossed in the sea of forgetfulness, that there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ…

      I pray that these men also repent and are forgiven and restored. Before it's too late.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/johnnyboy777 johnnyboy777

    Sounds like ya'll need to worry less about your "prophesying" and your "healing" and your "anointing" and focus on your ability to discern. One shouldn't have to "sit down and talk" with Todd Bentley to see that his actions fall outside the what is expected of a Christ follower (nevermind a shepherd who is leading a flock).

    Furthermore, a better understanding of "the grace and mercy of God" would only be necessary if the issue was that a particular church member was holding resentment towards a brother. If Todd Bentley had turned from his ways, shown a different kind of fruit (because you can only tell what kind of tree it is by the kind of fruit that it bears) and genuinely repented from his ways, then I would tell his nay-sayers that they needed a lesson in God's grace, mercy and forgiveness. But, more or less, the entire church visible sees Bentley as a heretic and a liar. So it is not about restoration, or grace, or mercy.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      I tried to reply to this yesterday but the comments system must have hiccuped.

      I was laughing about your "entire church visible" comment… Really? That's hysterical.

      I do know some Christians who have reservations about Bentley and his restoration. They've adopted a "wait and see" attitude and there's wisdom in that. Others just plain don't like him, and so they don't go to his meetings. (That's sort of like, I personally really can't STAND TD Jakes. So I don't go to his meetings or listen to his preaching or read his books). It's not a particularly big deal to them what other people think. ::shrugs::

      But the only people I know who feel the way you do are you and your satan-loving brethren. (I say you love satan because his name and his alleged works are always on your lips…)

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      I tried to reply to this yesterday but the comments system must have hiccuped.

      I was laughing about your "entire church visible" comment… Really? That's hysterical.

      I do know some Christians who have reservations about Bentley and his restoration. They've adopted a "wait and see" attitude and there's wisdom in that. Others just plain don't like him, and so they don't go to his meetings. (That's sort of like, I personally really can't STAND TD Jakes. So I don't go to his meetings or listen to his preaching or read his books). It's not a particularly big deal to them what other people think. ::shrugs::

      But the only people I know who feel the way you do are you and your satan-loving brethren. (I say you love satan because his name and his alleged works are always on your lips…)

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/johnnyboy777 johnnyboy777

    As far as I know, Bentley has not turned from his ways. We don't need to sit down and have a chat with him to know that. Let me just add that I am an outsider (from Virginia) who has only read about Bentley and Lakeland Revival, and because I am removed from this situation I could have some of my facts wrong. But as far as I know, the adultery, the divorce (and the new marriage) are still in effect.

    All of that being said, my speculation is that you probably cannot see it this way because you have an attachment to Bentley. I would encourage you to prayerfully seek God, ask Him to show you whether you should be worshipping with such a pastor, and wait for Him to answer. He will always lead you to Truth because He loves you more than anything.

    David

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      David… or is it Johnny — with an email address that has "sexy" as part of it, you're really a trip :)

      BTW, what happened to David (since you use his name) when he spied on a naked woman and then had her husband murdered so he could be with her?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

        And you'll be happy to know that "HoyaSexy" no longer exists on the world wide interwebs.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

          ummmmm…. ok….

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

          Ahh. Went back and read your previous post and connected the dots <duh!> Good move.

          Spam accounts are awesome. :) I should use one when I post on heresy hunter sites, I suppose, but I find the subsequent commentary funny. :D

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

            no problem ;)

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/johnnyboy777 johnnyboy777

    (This reply is probably going to be separated into three posts, so please post them together)

    Kathi, I would try to continue this discussion with you but you did not answer any of my refutations to your logic (except for the one about "the entire church visible" which I more or less stick by, although I can see how you take that as opinion instead of fact). Anyway, I made some pretty clear points that merit a response, and I haven't gotten that. Instead, you called me a Satan worshipper. I'm pretty taken aback at being called a "satan lover". I am not one, nor do I deserve to be characterized as one.

    Furthermore, it reveals your unwillingness to look at things objectively. Me (and others like me) are calling Bentley's actions into question (for good reason!), but you wish to protect your leader so much, that any critic is automatically regarded as not only an enemy, but the worst kind of person imagineable: one who denies Christ as Savior and reveres the prince of the power of the air. That boggles my mind, and I think it reveals more about you than you realize.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/johnnyboy777 johnnyboy777

    I didn't say anything radical, (although my first comment did open up with a bit of sarcasm) nor did I say anything that indicates I worship Satan. I made three points, which I'll reiterate below.

    1. You speak much of healing, prophesying, having visions, etc. I believe God can work miracles, and I believe your story about how he healed you! He's an amazing God and can work in whatever way he wishes; if he wishes to make Kathi Sharpe pain-free and able to use her hands again, then he will. Miracles are happening today, on God's time when He deems fit. He can heal and reveal truth and insight to anyone, at anytime, because He is an amazing God. The first point that I made (although I made it rather implicitly) was that your extreme focus on spiritual gifts of healing, etc. could be blinding you from discerning properly.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/johnnyboy777 johnnyboy777

    2. Your argument that any Bentley nay-sayers should "sit down and talk" with him before they say anything about him is invalid. Actions speak louder than words, and to expect that every person who tells their flock to watch out for Todd Bentley would need to sit down and talk with him is absurd. We can tell where his heart is by what he does. We don't need to have a one on one.

    3. Your argument that everybody who talks badly about Bentley needs a lesson in grace and forgiveness is invalid because that conversation is only appropriate with people who have been fully restored. Please see my first comment for more clarification.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/johnnyboy777 johnnyboy777

    Those were my three points. Do not attack me or my faith because I disagree with you, or because I posed arguments against a man whom you have a deep attachment. I should not have been sarcastic in my opening statement, and for that I apologize.

    As for my name (and e-mail address), my name IS David and this is my spam e-mail account. I created it a while back (long before my conversion) and I use it on Web sites where I don't feel like giving my real e-mail address. Thanks to your comments, I'll be deleting it after this posting (because you're right!). But I would ask that instead of going after me personally, that you would respond to the comments that I brought up. I think they're valid and I'd like to know if (and why) you don't.

    David

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      David –

      If you were handling your criticisms in a biblical way, I'd give you the time of day. There are quite a few people who have expressed concern and/or criticism of the man and done so in a godly way, and I have utmost respect for them. In fact, when I talked to Todd personally and face to face, I expressed several concerns I had. He addressed them. That is the way things are supposed to work.

      Since you can't be bothered to do what Jesus said to do – and since you lack the authority to do as Paul did – I really see no point in debating the issue. Regardless of whether Bentley is right or wrong, YOU are in the wrong. God has a lot to say about those who cause discord among the brethren.

      To address one of your points – I don't think I focus on gifts like healing or prophecy any more than Jesus or the apostles did… so if there's a problem, perhaps you should argue with God about their example.

      I should note though – I've yet to find an example of the disciples/apostles praying for healing (other than Acts 4, which was a "Work through us, God" statement in a prayer meeting, not a laying-on-hands-to-heal moment). Interesting how that works, isn't it?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

    Kathi, (this is Johnnyboy777) please explain to me what I have done wrong and how I have unbiblically addressed this issue. Please respond, if not for satisfying my own curiosity, then to set me straight so I can abstain from future sin. If I'm sinning right now, then at least have the decency to tell me why so I can decide whether or not I agree with you and change my ways.

    As for your last comment, I pray for healing every day! (for my own heart to be healed from sin (anger, pride, vanity, etc.), for others to be healed of sickness, and in many other ways.) I've had hands laid on me, and I've laid hands on others as well! I ABSOLUTELY believe in the laying on of hands. But I do not think that God's power can be harnessed in some type of "Spirit outpouring" service. God answers those prayers when and if he chooses to do so.

    I still haven't heard an apology or a reason why I deserve to be called a satan lover, but we're operating out of grace and forgiveness here so I'll let it slide ;)

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      The Bible just doesn't support that "God answers those prayers if and when He choses", David. I encourage you to read through the gospels and Acts and see for yourself. Note each and every healing and how it came about. Follow up with a read through Isaiah 53, Psalm 103, etc.

      As for the rest – if you have not sat down personally with Todd Bentley to express your concerns in love – you have no place and no right to express them elsewhere.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

    I want to challenge you on this: Listen in the tonight when you go to Morningstar and try to count how many times man's wretchedness and sin is discussed . Or how often we are called on to reflect the Cross and the amazing price Christ paid because of our sin. Listen for someone to preach about the enormous gap that separates us from God, and then about how because of God's grace he sent his only Son to pay our debt of sin and die on our behalf, and then who rose again so that if we believe in Him as our salvation, then we can be reconciled with God. Listen for those things (i.e. the Gospel). If that is not being preached (and I'm not talking about every 5 seconds…but then again, that is the whole point of the church) and every service is spent "experiencing" God through existential means instead of preaching the truth, then that is my biggest argument against Todd.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      I'm not going back until Friday – but let me say this. Loudly.

      There is no enormous gap that separates saints from God.

      If an evangelistic service were being preached, then discussion of the gap between sinners and God is essential. So is discussion about man's wretchedness and sin apart from God.

      And that's *not* the point of the church, or of ministry. (Do you really need me to cite Scripture? I'd be happy to help you find it if you need help, but I think you know what I'm talking about here, and you're deliberately ignoring it.)

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

        I swear I am not deliberately ignoring anything. Christ's death and resurrection, and the constant reminder that we once *were* separated by a great gap, is the gospel! That message should be preached, considered and revered daily! At no point do we become too advanced to be reminded that it is only by God's grace that we have been saved. There is no level we reach where we don't need to be reminded to enter into daily repentence and confession.

        The point of the church is to equip the body, but you cannot do that without the Gospel. It's not just a "now I'm in the club so I don't need to hear it any more" sort of thing.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

    As for your comment about having to sit down with Todd Bentley personally to express my concerns in love before I post anything on the internet, I disagree. On the one hand, there are many apologetics ministries out there who spend their entire careers researching different religious movements in order to protect the sheep from false doctrines. Their job is two-fold: to rebut those false preachers with the truth, and to inform the flock of this deception, in order to protect them. Those apologetics ministries are priceless! Yet using your logic, they are unbiblical because they did not pull each person aside to have a one-on-one confrontation.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      First of all, "apologetics" is defense of the faith. These are not apologists. Furthermore, if they are "exposing false doctrines" among Christians, they are most assuredly unbiblical.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

        Ok, granted apologetics ministries may be the wrong way to describe them. How about watchdog ministries?

        Furthermore, are you saying that if watchdogs attack other Christians for preaching false doctrine, then that makes those watchdogs unbiblical? I know of many a saved man and woman who fell into belief about something they shouldn't have been believing, only to have their eyes opened to the truth. Just because we're saved, doesn't mean we'll never fall into deceit! That's why Paul commands us to test the spirits! That doesn't apply to non-believers, because they don't believe the Gospel, therefore they have no standard to test against!!!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

          Paul said \”test the spirits\” not \”lie when it suits you and spread as much hatred and discord as you can while ignoring those chunks of Scripture that don't suit you\” …

          and how many of those people you're talking about are really just FINE, David?

          I weep for people like you, who are so blinded they can't see the forest for the demons hiding behind all the trees :(

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

            Kathi, you're assuming that I have a hidden agenda. I've been totally honest with you here, and I've told you that the only agenda I have is the gospel and sound doctrine. I have not lied anywhere. It is a fact that Todd committed adultery. It is a fact that he remarried as soon as his divorce was settled. It is a fact that he began his ministry again shortly thereafter. There are no lies being spread here. Instead, I (along with some others) are calling for more accountability. That's not spreading lies, that's called critiquing what's going on in the church.

            This is called playing the Pharisee card. Whenever a critique is lodged against someone, they automatically cry out "heresy hunter" and claim that those of us who are doing the calling out are "pharisees". Where have I stumbled? Where have I sinned? Don't weep for me because I disagree with you.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

            Is it a fact, David? Really? Your agenda is NOT the gospel, nor is it sound doctrine.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

            Kathi, I told you at the very beginning that I am an outsider and that I am not directly involved with Bentley or your church. I also told you that some of my facts could be wrong, being that I have read instead of directly experienced all of these things. I've also shown a willingness to be corrected. I have asked you on a number of occasions to tell me where I am wrong.

            Did Bentley not commit adultery? Did he not immediately remarry afterwards? Did he not restart his ministry shortly thereafter. If those are not facts, please tell me so.

            I'll close by saying that Indirectly, my agenda IS the gospel. If a false preacher is out there preaching a false gospel, if corrupt leaders are gaining power within the church, then engaging in discussion with those who are being deceived is a good thing. I cannot see how you could disagree with that.

            I refuse to buy Bentley's book. I will not contribute to his ministry because it preaches heresy (again, I refer to his spirit guide Emma) so I guess we're done.

            Anyway, it was nice having a civil conversation with you.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

            How do you know what his book refers to if you haven't read it? :)

            How do you even know what the facts are?

            Fascinating, the assumptions made…

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

            Like I said, I've read quite a bit about Bentley. I don't have to have read every one of his books fully to know what he says. But throughout our conversation, I've allowed the possibility that I could be wrong. I'm still waiting for you to show me where!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

            Have you read ANY of his books? Give me a break.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

    In addition, Todd Bentley has been repeatedly confronted about his heresy (especially concerning the Angel Emma which is his self-proclaimed spirit guide) and he has not heeded those warnings. The implication that I would have to first confront him on my own before warning other people about him (or trying to engage in discussion about him here on this blog) is ridiculous, and more of a legalistic requirement than anything else. I call it legalistic because it ignores the heart of what Christ was saying in the Matthew 18 instructions on confrontation (which is what I think you are getting at). I believe that teaching is about operating out of grace and forgiveiness and allowing a brother who sins against you to repent and be forgiven before his sin is made public. If he does not repent, then you bring another brother, and then to the church if all else fails. I do not need to go through all of those steps if he has already revealed that he has no intention of repenting.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

    What does true repentance look like for Todd Bentley? I'll quote a great article from CharismaMag:

    "If we truly love Todd Bentley, we will not clamor for his quick return to the pulpit. While we certainly want him to be fully restored to fellowship with God, we cannot rush the process of restoring a man to ministry. Leaders must live up to a higher standard. We must demand that those involved in Bentley's restoration not only love him but also love the church by protecting us from the kind of scandal we endured last year."

    Read more: http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/fire-in-my-b

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

    "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:15-16).

    "For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of; for necessity is laid upon me; yea woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel." (1 Corinthians 9:16)

    …I'm sure you know of the many others ;)

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

    Kathi – I am not a pastor, nor do I have a comprehensive understanding of everything in Scripture. But in my understanding of Scripture, God chooses when to heal. (i.e. David's illegitimate child with Bathsheba, Paul on the island of Malta, you and your amazing story of being healed!). The book of Acts is a great book because it shows how God laid the foundation of his church! And yes, he is still doing such a thing, working miracles in the lives of people as he chooses, healing through prayer. But this concept of man-centered healing, where people come in droves with the assurance of being healed is not found in the Bible either (outside of Jesus of course, and a few of the apostles at the very beginning of church history). More often than not, what we find at those services is less preaching of the Gospel, and more discussing spirit outpourings, anointings, prophecies, and other such things.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      How are modern believers different from Philip (who, by the way, was not an apostle)?

      Should the need for salvation be preached to the already-saved? Or should those saved be equipped?

      This is approaching hte ridiculous.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      Oh, and…

      If I was to take you on a tour of Triad area churches (since that's where I'm from) of which there's thousands upon thousands… at how many of them would you hear the Gospel preached on Sunday?

      Until you complain about them (to them)…

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

        That's a shame!

        If they ain't preaching the Gospel (which doesn't have to be restricted to evangelism…nailing your sin habits to the cross IS the Gospel, forgiving your wife because Christ forgives you IS the Gospel, finding hope in Christ when sickness/bad circumstances/etc. are making life full of strife IS the Gospel) then I don't want to be there.

        I can make a broad statement like that without having to confront every single person who doesn't preach the Gospel.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

    "We can preach the Gospel all day long, but that won't win souls. That won't win the hearts of the people. We can talk, try to theorize, theologize, reason, argue, debate, and spend time trying to prove that Jesus lived, but that won't win a heart." [Todd Bentley, Kingdom Rising: Making the Kingdom Real in Your Life, Destiny Image Publishers, Inc., October 2008, p. 67]

    I'm sorry, but that right there says it all. We are commanded to boldly preach the Gospel. It is not PEOPLE that convinces unbelievers to have faith in Christ, it's the Spirit that regenerates their souls, and opens their eyes to the truth. We are just the vessels that communicate. This has been God's plan from the very beginning, but Todd is saying that's not good enough.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      Why do you have to quote from the only Todd Bentley book that I don't own? :) I'll have to pick it up when I'm @ Morningstar Friday.

      How about some context?

      I can guess at the context – and based on that guess, I agree with him. Acts 8.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

        Regardless of the context, he's talking about a better way to proseletyze other than speaking the Gospel. He wants to give our words some "oomph" and reveal the power of God. He's saying the Gospel message is lacking without some kind of Spirit outpouring.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Georgetown Georgetown

        Regardless of the context, he's talking about a better way to proseletyze other than speaking the Gospel. He wants to give our words some "oomph" and reveal the power of God. He's saying the Gospel message is lacking without some kind of Spirit outpouring.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

          Tell you what – go buy a copy of it it. Read it. The whole thing. (I'll do the same). Come back when you're done. Until then…

          Giving the words some ooomph is precisely what God wants to do. He says so over and over again in the Bible (perhaps you should read that too?)

          I'm really kind of puzzled here… really, well and truly.

          Oh well – let me know when you're done reading the book. I'm done until you do.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

    Steve – people who love other people don't act that way. ::shrugs:: but to each their own. If you like that, feel free to embrace them. :)

    On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Kathi Sharpe <kathi@iamhealed.net> wrote:
    approve

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

    In retrospect, I decided to delete what Steve said rather than let it stand (his other six or eight increasingly vile comments helped me to make that decision.)

    Steve, you're welcome to read here – but if you continue to post in such a way that I have to stop what I'm doing, pray for your blood pressure, and delete what you've said – I'll IP ban you in order to help you behave.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/johnburton johnburton

    There's a question that I haven't received a response from yet… from heresy hunters… "Do you not understand that most Christians disagree on certain biblical points?"

    The issue is this- heresy hunters presume to be the only bible scholars with an approved interpretation of biblical non-absolutes. There is zero room for healthy, enjoyable debate… they are right and literally every single other person in the world is wrong.

    They presume to have the final word on everything- tongues, manifestations, timing of the rapture, Calvinism vs. Armenianism, etc.

    If anybody disagrees on any of it, they are deemed to be demonized, a heretic, following another Jesus, etc.

    I haven't been able to find any of them… not one… who will discuss this point.

    Again, the question is- do you agree that some Christians have differing interpretations on some biblical points?

    For example… Todd Bentley and the angel Emma. Why do people have such a hard time with that? The only reason I've heard is because the Bible doesn't mention female angels. That's it. Is there something I'm missing? Is it fair to call Todd a heretic because of that single issue? Is that enough evidence to prove that he's inhabited by Satan? I'm not talking about his other issues… is that single issue enough to renounce him?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      Not sure why my replies via email are not working. Might be (yet another) comment system is about to bite the dust.

      The only reason they call Todd Bentley a heretic is because he believes with all his heart, mind, and soul in the REDEMPTIVE and TRANSFORMATIVE power of Christ. They do not believe that Christ can redeem, save, heal, deliver, set free from bondage. Ergo he (and you, and I) upset their apple cart because we have something that they lack.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/johnburton johnburton

    Right… I was on the Slaughter of the Sheep site… just having very nice, healthy dialogue… one person even said she appreciated my kind approach… but then, man, it all just blew up.

    Apparently anybody who supports grace, forgiveness and redemption… in regard to divorce, for example… is a heretic. Can God not forgive and restore Todd?

    It's honestly so sad… so many of these people are just mean and there's no kindness or tenderness at all. Don't they know that it's kindness that leads people to repentance?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/KathiSharpe KathiSharpe

      OK trying an email reply from the computer as a test (maybe it's something in the cell phone email system that's weird?):

      These people travel earth and sea to win one proselyte and make them twice as much a son of hell as they are. If you're not willing to become just like them, you are obviously a heretic. Obviously. They've even taken to doing drive-by shootings on facebook and twitter and people who won't look at their websites are labeled heretics.

  • Barjabba

    Intersting.  Not sure how long ago this was.  IMHO, as a Christ-Led Child of the King, I believe there is usually a process in the Church that deals with sin.  My Small Church Group, adopts the process of the Church it came out of.  WHich is for the all members (non denomonation, do formal sign up contracts) are given nearly 4 chances to repent if the sin is true.  Finding out the truth on the matter is 1st.

    The Eldgers go to the brother/sister and with all the love of Christ disuss it with them.  Hearing is more important than talking judgementally.   Anyway, it usually never gets to the last steps, because if the person was trully a Christ -led person, repentance comes.  Without threats of hell and judgenment coming from the elders lips.  The just speak the word of God from the Bible.  ANyway, I have never known anyone that has been forcablity barred from coming in the church building.  But, I have seen one about 5 years ago in the old church that had been castigated (the last step) in front of the body.  This simply asks to pray for such snd uch, that the elders tried many times to help him see the error and sin.  He refused and has been un repented.  If that person keeps comming to services( even during this acknowledgemnt in from of the body, they usually feel exposed and castigated.  Which better if he is to come to repentance.  The Bible is expliit on this.

    Yelling during a service is plain wrong, regaurdless.  Other people are there for a worshipfull, enlightening experience.  You are putting others in an embarrasing situation.  Of Course, they’ll feel very negative and put off in a big way.  You have essentially dirtied thier “Spiritual Water” as it were.  All because you are thinking it is a proper place to do this (5 times even).  It is not what God would have ANYone do.  It IS His House.  You only harden the hearts of the unsaved folk there, who may be in there to receive a seed or salvation itself.  These folk are not members of the church I kind think.  If you want to do something in a “wide audience” sort of way; go get interview on TV.  I am sure the world will be chomping at the bits to get a inter Church skizim going for some hot events on the news.

    True Christians can laugh it off and shake there heads in amazment.  But there is true hatred for the Christ-led.  They are coming right on in and there goal is to disrupt, embarrass, even bully, the Church body.  Like those Gay Activists some time ago.  They through there leaflets all over.  They were escoted out as peacably as the could be, picked up there mess, and helped the elderly woman off the ground when she wanted to leave.  These clods were demonic I think.   Not even polite enough to let the lady leave.

    We haven’t seen the true things that are know being down to Chrisitans around the world.  We think it could not happen here in the US.  It already has, a lot.  Yu see the media just isn’t gonna tell you those stories.

    • http://iamhealed.net Kay

      Barjabba, this was February 5, 2010 that this happened.