Bible » I Am Healed!

Are we guilty of only preaching a partial gospel (and is that why the church is historically powerless)?

Jul 302008

[editing to add: apologies in advance for what might be my longest post ever.]

I’ve been watching the Lakeland revival for a long time now. Long enough that when it’s not on, it seems strange to watch “other” shows that were normal for us prior to revival. The revival’s been happening now for something like 112 days, and we’ve probably watched 90-95 of them. We’ve missed a few nights due to travel, and some due to church or family events. One thing that I like about it is that it’s really not about Todd Bentley. Nights he’s not there are just as good as when he’s there. We’ve been introduced to a number of preachers we’d never heard of. I’ve greatly enjoyed the preaching of Roy Fields (yes, the worship leader), Bobby Conner, and Steven Strader, and quite a few of the other Fresh Fire affiliates.

As an aside…Another thing I like is that the music is not always that great (to my ear, anyway) but that the focus is never on the musicians, not on the worship leader, it’s on Jesus and that profound sense of worship, and the anointing, are present regardless of who’s at the keyboard and whether that last note was in key (no one seems to care because their focus is above )

Anyways… our current favorite preacher is the guy who’s ministered the last two nights – Ryan Wyatt of Abiding Glory Ministries in Knoxville, TN. He’s very bright and biblically spot-on, but also funny. He’s not afraid to dish it back to the heresy hunters either . He’s made some comments about the occult that I’m not so sure about – but I’ll tell you something that I’ve not said before. I’m learning not to say, “That’s not so”… and instead say, “That’s not been my experience, nor the experience of those I’ve ministered to.” More on that later.

Ryan’s done a lot of preaching the last two nights. The man’s a whirlwind. Some of his points sum up to this – we’re not living up to our potential in the Kingdom. I know that’s probably not news to anybody – but I’d like to examine some Scripture and address some core beliefs in the church, and then invite readers to comment. Some of what is below is straight from Ryan, and some of it’s my own ruminations. Since I’ve spent much of the last two days and nights pondering what he said, it’ll be awfully difficult to sort out what’s “his” and what’s “mine” – we can just assign it all to the Lord, for His glory, and not worry about human inspirations. Also note that I’m not trying in any way to summarize all that he said, because he made a lot of other great points.

Here’s a good snippet on youtube of Ryan preaching, and what I’m about to talk about…

Point # 1 – Jesus didn’t preach a gospel of salvation. He preached the gospel of the Kingdom.

That one just comes and smacks you upside the head. “The gospel of the Kingdom” is a direct quote from Matthew 9:35 (I just found it – not sure if Ryan referenced it or not).

Jesus began His ministry by saying, “Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17) and as He went, He preached salvation… and healing, and cleansing, and deliverance, and resurrection from the dead, and provision, and and and…

Why have we utterly lost track of, “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.” (Matthew 10:8).

Salvation is necessary and what I’m about to say should not be taken to diminish that grace and gift of God in any way… but the Bible is clear that salvation is not the sum total of our inheritance from God.

Point #2 – Jesus came so that we could become sons of God.

Romans 8:14 says, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are SONS OF GOD.” (emphasis in caps is mine) and then in verse 16 and following, the indisputable word of God says, “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs – heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ…”

Woah. What’s that mean? But wait – there’s more. Galatians 4 says that in the fullness of time, God sent Jesus to redeem us, “that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” (emphasis mine)

Point #3 – If Jesus inherited the Kingdom of God (Hebrews 1:4), and we are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, then WE ALSO inherit the Kingdom. Right along with Him.

The Holy Ghost lives within us. Our bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit. That means we carry the literal presence of God within us everywhere that we go. We carry our inheritance with us everywhere we go. No matter what situation we find ourselves in, we’re the heirs of God and He’s right there with us.

So why do we have such little effect on the world around us?

Point #4 – Salvation is only the beginning of what God wants to give us.

This hearkens back to point #1, but I wanted to bring out the other points first. If the gospel of salvation is the only good news preached (and it is indeed good news), it becomes rather like going to Disney and entering into the kingdom through the gates… but never getting on any of the rides, never hanging out with Mickey Mouse, never eating the funnel cakes… just sitting within the gates, doing nothing.

Point #5 – If the Gospel is, indeed, more than salvation, why isn’t the church living in that reality?

I’ve had conversations back and forth for a couple of years with a friend (who can comment and tell her story if she likes – I don’t have her permission to) who was very hurt when God did not heal someone important to her. The central question is, “If healing really is part of the atonement, then why doesn’t God always heal?” – which ultimately has led my friend to question the validity of the Bible and trustworthiness of God.

My answers over the years have ranged from speaking of the natural (since not everyone’s healed, since sin introduced sickness and death into the world) to sovereignty (since God is not our puppet, and since everyone dies a physical death).

I’m currently questioning that thinking – even with my own illness (see my last post).

The Bible says, “Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not His benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases, Who redeems your life from destruction, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies, Who satisfies your mouth with good things, so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.” (Psalm 103) Why is it that Christians are willing to accept the reality of forgiveness (He doesn’t pick and choose which sins He forgives, does He? No! He forgives ALL.) and willing to accept redemption, lovingkindness and tender mercies… but don’t accept that the Bible really does say that God HEALS ALL OUR DISEASES?

I do see in the Bible that there’s a couple of examples of people not being healed… Paul, from whatever his thorn in the side was – but God communicated that to him. Trophimus was left in Miletus, sick. Was he, perhaps, our forerunner?

Perhaps it’s because the church has preached the gospel of salvation ONLY for so long that we don’t lay claim to our inheritance.

The Bible also says, “But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our inquities, The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.” Again – we’re willing to accept His wounding and bruising for our sins – why not His whipping for our healing?

I think it’s because it’s become so ingrained in our minds – even in the minds of people who KNOW and ACCEPT that healing is part of the atonement – that this inheritance is not really ours. We own it, we possess it… but we never DO anything with it. We enter into the gates of the Kingdom, but we never access any of the Kingdom’s benefits.

It’s all right for Jesus to have healed the sick and raised the dead. After all, He’s Jesus. It’s all right for the apostles to have done those things – after all, they were directly commissioned by Jesus. (But weren’t we all? Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-20)

But the Bible says that God’s no respecter of persons. The Bible says we’re joint heirs with Christ. The Bible says that we’re sons of God. Jesus Himself commissioned us to do the work of the Kingdom.

So why, exactly, are we powerless when we should be powerful?

Is it because God’s word is untrue? Is it because there really is no power? (NO!)

I think it’s because even though we’re supposed to be the children of the Most High (with all the attendant privilege and responsibility thereof), we still live like we’re homeless people.

I know that a lot of people will have a hard time relating to what I’m about to say (and so I’ll say it another way, in a moment)… I use “homeless” for a reason. I was homeless once. I lived on the streets of Bangor, Maine for a season. It wasn’t a long time – just a few months – but I was young, and it made an impression on me that I occasionally still find myself face to face with.

Some terrible things happened to me… I went hungry. I was cold. I was sick. I was raped out there. I literally had the clothes on my back and nothing else.

As a result of the experience, once I began living in a normal place again, I had a very hard time. There was a bathroom with a toilet and shower in it. I didn’t need to worry about danger there. I could pee in that toilet any time I liked. I could take an hour long shower if I wanted to. It was mine. But what did I do? For about a year after I had a place to stay, I was in and out of that bathroom in ten seconds flat. Even though it was mine – it really wasn’t mine. Somewhere deep inside, it took me a long time to accept ownership of that thing.

Another way to look at it – most of my readers can likely relate to this. I haven’t had the impression that anyone who reads this blog is filthy rich – we’re mostly lower to middle class working folks. What would happen if we were suddenly transported out of our lifestyle where we have to pinch pennies and we were dropped into a mansion, complete with servants, polished silver and china to eat from, sparkling chandeliers and enough money to do anything we wanted, any time we wanted? I’m betting that most of us would take a long time to get used to it. Sure, we could settle into some things – but how comfortable would we be in that role? I know I sure wouldn’t be comfortable for a long time. For starters, I’m just more comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt drinking coffee out of a chipped ceramic mug than I am in manicured nails drinking tea from porcelain. If my entire outfit, head to toe, counting shoes, costs more than $20 I’m not comfortable. While I’m sure that if I suddenly became wealthy that I might choose to buy new clothes, there ain’t no way I’m buying Prada. Know what I mean? Secondly, I’m sure that for a very long time I would have a fear of what I had suddenly disappearing (the same thing happened after I got a home, after being out on the streets). I was terrified to use what I had, lest I come to depend on it, and it disappear.

Is this the way the church views the Gospel? Has salvation-only become so ingrained in our psyche (like homelessness) that we aren’t ABLE to enjoy our full inheritance? And we’re even so wobbly about salvation itself that it’s easy to go to extremes – to take it for granted or as a license to sin, or to condemn ourselves for past wrongs that God’s forgotten about.

So what if my sickness has nothing to do with God’s sovereignty? What if God really wants to heal me, just like He promised (and God cannot lie)? Maybe we’re not seeing mass healings and resurrections from the dead and deliverances because even though we give intellectual assent to the possibility, we really don’t believe? Maybe it’s because we, as a body of believers and as individuals, have so fixated on what we can “prove” that the only “unprovable” thing we’ll believe is salvation? (Just ask yer average Christian about the supernatural – they’ll either tell you that it’s heresy or that it doesn’t exist)

What do we need to do, to break loose from this unbelief (Lord, I believe – help my unbelief!)… what do we need to do, to truly live out the reality of being sons and heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ, carriers of His manifest presence everywhere we go…. ?

Heresy Hunters

Christian/Revival Topics 21 Responses »

Jul 222008

The following is an edited excerpt of something I wrote elsewhere, when someone asked me essentially, “What do you mean when you say, “heresy hunter” … are you talking about people who have questions about the Lakeland Revival, concerns about Todd Bentley, or who have decided that this revival isn’t something they wish to participate in?”

Heresy Hunters (aka doctrine police) are people whose stated aims and goals are to ferret out heresy in the church. They generally call themselves “discernment ministers”. Most have no ministry beyond pointing out alleged errors on the part of church leaders. Most of the ones I’ve dealt with are rabidly anti-charismatic/anti-pentecostal.

They will write volumes of information (often 50 printed pages or more) carefully documenting their allegations. They write “open letters” to the people they’ve labeled as “heretics”, often demanding they agree to the hunter’s position publicly, and often including threats “Or I’ll expose you” or “I’ll start a campaign against your publisher” etc. When they hear “no” or get no reply, they take that as more “evidence” against the alleged heretic. They also write “open letters” to countries, heads of state, etc. regarding these alleged heretics, urging the country not to allow the minister in.

Now. I have no problem with free speech. If you want to write to the editor of a magazine, or to a publisher, or to the President of Timbuktu, more power to you -even if it’s about a minister. If there’s a particular cause you want to take a stand on (for example, the acceptance of homosexuality in the church), more power to you. If you don’t like Todd Bentley, that’s great. If you’ve got honest questions about the revival, wonderful. Rev. Merry (now a frequent commenter on this site) is a perfect example of somebody who’s got a BIG problem with some of what’s happening at Lakeland, but I don’t consider him to be a heresy hunter. He may talk quite a lot about the subject here and there, but it’s obvious that he’s got a life, a ministry, and better things to do than chase Todd Bentley.

The folks I call heresy hunters live sleep breath and poop NOTHING but rage against the supposedly egregious errors of people who
a) are supposed to be their brethren in Christ
b) they have no positional right to correct
c) really don’t care what the heresy hunters think anyway
d) aren’t going to bother listening to you because of how they approach them
AND
the HH’s have absolutely no fruit in your life (other than pointing out these egregious errors and sins in the church) because THIS is their life

It’s better than the pop-tarts celebrity gossip column. Really.

And if you don’t take them seriously… if you don’t agree with their interpretation of the Bible or events…they’ll condemn you, too. They’ll even tell you that you’re not saved.

Some of the heresy hunters out there are terribly deceived… but may I add that there’s some heresy hunters who I do not consider to be brethren in Christ… sorry but if your stated aim is to hate and incite hatred, and your “Jesus” is what has incited and encouraged you to do this – you’re not following the Jesus of the Bible, who I follow. If you’re more concerned about satan than Jesus, that makes you a satanist…not a Christian. If you hate all Christians but yourself and the few who agree with you – sorry buddy, you are deceived. If you say that hate really is love – all I can suggest for you is to throw yourself down at the feet of Jesus and repent.

tag: heresy hunters, revival police, doctrine police, lakeland revival, todd bentley, heresy, heretic

How did John know?

Christian/Revival Topics 14 Responses »

Jul 202008

So this might rank as a colossally dumb question. Or a blonde moment.

But if what Bud says is true – that Jesus saying, “Folks will say I’m here or there, don’t believe them”… then shouldn’t we toss out the book of Revelation?

::frowns:: I don’t recall Him saying, “I’ll show up just once, that one you can believe…”

Somehow I don’t think THAT’S right!

Ahh, Bud Press.

Christian/Revival Topics 36 Responses »

Jul 182008

There’s reasons I broke fellowship with Bud Press of the “Christian” “Research” “Service”, as well as his merry band of heresy hunters, a few years back (and those should be evident if you read this post and subsequent commentary)

Bud posted a lengthy reply in the comments, and I thought it was worthy of its own post:

Kathi, here is an response I provided on another blog. Hopefully, it will help you to have a better understanding of what the Bible says about visions of and seeing Jesus:

Now, this raises an interesting question of its own.

I have not asked for any help in understanding what the Bible says about visions and seeing Jesus. If I were to ask for help with such matters, it would be from one of several people who can, and do, speak life from the Word of God into my life on a regular basis. (In fact, I attended a Bible study last night where we discussed visions and prophecy)

So – only by virtue that he is the church’s self-appointed, self-anointed heresy hunter does Bud come here, to correct my allegedly grievous ways.

First, Jesus can do anything He wants. He is God Himself in human form, the Creator of the universe, and second Person of the Trinity. However, He will not contradict His word or change His mind to fit the occasion.

He allegedly won’t do anything that Bud dislikes, either. Like appear to me in a vision.

[snipping some rather unimportant stuff] Thus, concerning visions of Jesus, here are some important questions to consider:

– Where does the vision originate? (i.e., thoughts, day-dreams, imagination, personal curiosity, or desire?) –What is the purpose of the vision? – We know the Bible speaks of visions in both the Old and New Testaments. But if it is possible for modern-day Christians to have visions of Jesus, why would we need the Bible, when all we would have to do is talk to “Jesus”? – During a vision, do Jesus’ words perfectly match with His words in the Bible? – Who is claiming the vision? (solid, Bible-based Christian or false teacher?) – By what standard do Christians test a dream or vision of “Jesus”? Do we simply take the person’s word or trust God’s word? – How do modern-day Christians know what Jesus looks like?

I would assume the vision originated with Jesus, Bud. There’s no reason why dreams or imagination would play a part. I certainly wasn’t curious about Jesus, and definitely had no desire for Him. Yet He came and He said, “I love you. Come follow Me.”

As a result of the vision, my life made an abrupt turn-around, God put me in touch (through <gasp> a miracle) with a man who was uniquely positioned to share Jesus with me, and I went from the occult to Jesus within a week. What purpose would satan have in leading me to Christ? My vision of Jesus has been weighed by many a Christian and with the exception of you and a few of your merry band of heresy hunters, everyone’s said, “Glory to God!”

Are you inferring by your questions that Jesus is incapable of doing anything but parrot what He’s already said? Be careful there, Bud… you’re very close (or perhaps have stepped beyond) the point of creating a god of your own liking.

When a person’s word does not contradict God’s word, there’s no harm in taking them at their word (which, BTW, Bud, is why I don’t take you at yours).

You raise an important question mid-way through: why do we need visions, if we have the Bible?

In my particular case, at that point in my life if I’d picked up a Bible, I’d have either used it as toilet paper or as a weapon (in the physical sense. If someone offered it to me, I’d have clubbed them with it.) (And yet, Jesus said He LOVES me!). The Bible would never have reached me… but the Word of God loved me enough to save me anyway.

In a more general sense, we need visions, dreams, prophecy, etc. because God Himself said that we do, He abundantly supplies that need, and He said that those things will end when we see Him face to face.

Another important question is, “How do we know that the “Jesus” in a thought, dream, vision, or personal visitation is the real Jesus?

But another important question, how do we know it’s not the real Jesus, Bud?

If salvation comes when we confess with our mouths, believe in our hearts, repent of our sins, make Him the Lord of our lives… then my vision was certainly of Jesus, because that’s precisely what happened.

2. Out of curiosity, I did a Google search on “visions of Jesus” and came up with over 295,000 hits. Here are some descriptions of “Jesus” during a vision:

– sitting in a wheelchair.
– dressed in a nurse’s uniform.
– dressed in purple, or red, or a dirty white robe with dusty sandals. – laying in a bed covered with a sheet. – turned into three men, then one, then three again. – looked the same as in a picture on a wall. – had a deep voice, soft voice, thunderous voice, or communicated telepathically. – tall, short, stocky built, long hair,short hair, beard, clean shaven, blond hair, black hair, brown hair, reddish-brown hair, blue eyes, brown eyes, eyes like clear crystal, skin color of black, brown, white, pink. – wore crown of thorns, bleeding from hands and feet, wore wings. – appeared as a bright light, light-blue light, blinding light, coming with jet planes in the sky. – appeared on breakfast toast, grilled-cheese sandwich, fried fish-stick, potatoes, sides of buildings, inside churches, in the clouds, and in dark bedrooms and hotel rooms.

Here is a photo/vision of “Jesus in the clouds,” where those interested may spend between $5.00 to $109.00 for copies ( http://www.divineson.com/getacopy.asp ).

And on, and, on, and on.

Now, honestly – how many of those things are actually unbiblical, Bud? I think the grilled cheese and potatoes probably qualifies.

You have read the book of Revelation, haven’t you? how about the Old Testament?

Yet, the Bible teaches that Satan has the ability to deceive the believer and disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:3-4; 13-15).

Indeed, Bud… like I said in my comment a few minutes ago, that is what I fear for you (who is the author of hate, Bud? how about lies?)

3. During Old Testament times, the landscape was littered with false prophets, who foretold false dreams and visions -[and here Bud cites a bunch of them, which I'm deleting for space in this rather lengthy post]:

Mmmhmmm. And what of those who didn’t listen to what the real prophets had to say?

4. A modern-day dream, vision, or visitation of “Jesus” is a private, one-on-one encounter. But in John 18:20, Jesus said, “I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret.”

Bud, that is a perfect example of Scripture-twisting if I’ve ever seen one… best ask the Apostle Paul about that. (And, BTW, I’m not referring to his Acts 9 encounter and subsequent re-telling of those events)

Colossians 2:18-19: Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, TAKING HIS STAND ON VISIONS HE HAS SEEN, INFLATED WITHOUT CAUSE BY HIS FLESHLY MIND, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God (emp. added).

More twisting. Who’s practicing self-abasement? Not me. Who’s worried about worshiping angels (only you, Bud, and quite frankly you seem to delight in it). I take my stand in the Word of God – Jesus isn’t inflated without cause by my fleshly mind – He’s in His rightful place of glory in my heart.

Acts 3:18-21: But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, WHOM HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE UNTIL THE PERIOD OF RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time (emp. added).

In other words, Jesus will remain in heaven until His return, and He knows that modern-day people and believers’ do not know what He looks like.

Then I guess Paul didn’t see Him either.

Neither have all the Muslim and pagan converts who are seeing Him in visions much like my own. (I pray you’ll see Him one day too, Bud -)

Therefore, the following Scriptures apply to dreams, visions, and visitations:

Matthew 24:23: Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.

Matthew 24:26: So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.

That’s already been addressed in the comments. Jesus was referring to people such as the “Siberian Jesus”, the dude in Miami who claims to be Jesus and is having his followers tattoo 666 on themselves, and the antichrist. Nothing in either verse even remotely implies visions.

A good rule-of-thumb to remember is:

“If anything is contrary to Scripture, it is wrong. If anything is the same as Scripture, it is not needed. If anything goes beyond Scripture, it has no authority.” (Curtis Crenshaw)

Find that in the Bible, Bud…

I won’t belabor the point of, “if anything is the same as Scripture, it’s unneeded” – Scripture confirms Scripture, ergo it’s not needed? Give me a break.

________________________________

I’m not surprised you found my blog, Bud… going around seeking heresy like you do. I’ll probably be next to be “written up” on your website.

I’d be honored.

The simplicity of Christ

Christian/Revival Topics 4 Responses »

Jul 182008

Jesus

saves
forgives
heals
delivers
sets free
fills us with joy
makes us more and more like Him

(and I could go on, but I’m trying to make a simple point.)

It’s interesting that there’s two groups of people that Jesus really tackled: The Pharisees (see Matthew 23) and those who should have had faith, but didn’t. (for example, Matthew 11, Luke 6)

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I Am Healed!

Are we guilty of only preaching a partial gospel (and is that why the church is historically powerless)?

Heresy Hunters

How did John know?

Ahh, Bud Press.

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